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Naim = bright?

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zarniwoop

zarniwoop

hoopy frood
There are regular comments in various threads about Naim sounding bright, and it certainly seems to be a brand that polorises opinion. Is there a measurable high frequency lift in Naim amps, or a similar roll-off in other brands? If not, is there a more subtle design parameter that creates this impression?

I'm not trying to start a Naim/anti-Naim war - I'm interested in what (if any) aspects of the design create such polarised views, or if it is a case of expectation bias.
 
I freely admit to not having heard any Naim for over 20 years. But I do distinctly remember that every time I heard their amps, (irrespective of front end, speakers or environment) they sounded brash to my ears. Not so much bright but cluttered and forward in the midrange. So they definitely had a "house sound" back in the days however they managed to achieve it technically. I always put it down, (probably completely erroneously) to their designs being intrinsically unstable and "ringy", thinking they were probably emphasizing leading edges over decay. Though how that would be possible to achieve in an amp design I've no idea.
 
I wouldn't say bright more like hard and fatiguing, I heard a 45 140 Kans that set my teeth on edge, it was better with a Hicap.

Pete
 
I tried a search, but given the number of times Naim are mentioned in threads it is a challenge to construct search criteria that will lead to some technical discussion on what gives rise to the house sound, if indeed there is one, without wading through a large volume of posts that do not go into such detail.

I like, and use, Naim amps, btw.
 
I think you would be bright to invest in some of the earlier Naim kit.

Naim have been very bright in providing an everlasting upgrade path which makes their customers feel not too bright when they hear a well set up 80s or 90s system which could be bought for less than the price of a single new powers supply.
 
zarniwoop said:
There are regular comments in various threads about Naim sounding bright, and it certainly seems to be a brand that polorises opinion. Is there a measurable high frequency lift in Naim amps, or a similar roll-off in other brands? If not, is there a more subtle design parameter that creates this impression?

I'm not trying to start a Naim/anti-Naim war - I'm interested in what (if any) aspects of the design create such polarised views, or if it is a case of expectation bias.
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Very simple: they can be very sensitive to source and setup. Feed with a good source and setup properly they are not bright. Ignore this and you will just get a lot of nasty noise. Naim go to great lengths to ensure noise is kept out of the amplification process but if you feed it with crap or run a power cable right over the speaker cable, crap is what you get! A lot of people on PFM buy their kit SH via here or eBay and do not benefit from the input of a dealer so they are often buying kit that has long since passed its service date and may well be incorrectly setup.
 
Not bright no.

Tricky to set up to an extent.

Upfront mids, Naim is all about the midrange.

Love it.
 
positive_energy said:
Very simple: they can be very sensitive to source and setup. Feed with a good source and setup properly they are not bright. Ignore this and you will just get a lot of nasty noise. Naim go to great lengths to ensure noise is kept out of the amplification process but if you feed it with crap or run a power cable right over the speaker cable, crap is what you get! A lot of people on PFM buy their kit SH via here or eBay and do not benefit from the input of a dealer so they are often buying kit that has long since passed its service date and may well be incorrectly setup.
Click to expand...

So why is it the worst sound I've ever heard came from Naim kit at a Naim dealer?

Naim CD, not the 555, 552 pre 500 power and Ovators... I've heard better sounding cement mixers...

And no, I'm not going to name the dealer.
 
Oh dear, what were you were say about a war. Oh well nothing on telly so it might be an amusing post to watch.

1st - Naim amps are NOT bright - its the speakers that are bright.
2nd - Naim amps & CDP's are - if anything - rolled off at HF more than many other makers.
This typically starts around 20kHz & is a 2 or 3dB down a 50kHz.
Most other makes of amps are ~3dB down around 100kHz

The attched links are intergrated amp freq response graphs with 8 4 & 2 ohm speaker load tested by Stereophile - same test lab for consistency
Unity
310Unifig07.jpg

Supernait
108Natfig06.jpg

Next is the mighty NAC552 pre-amp. The upper trace is the max you would have with a solid-state power amp load at 100kOhms
Naim power amps are all 18kOhms which would give a wider & flatter response.
552FIG1.jpg

Next is the Naim CDX the one that gets ALL the bad press over brightness
Namfig1.jpg


Not much brightness that I can see
 
I think a lot of this has to do with reputation and market image. Naim is bright, Quad is pipe&slippers, Cyrus is harsh and so on. As Mike showed above, the frequency response of Naim kit shows no sign of excessive brightness, if anything slightly recessed, not that anyone could hear a 1dB drop at 20kHz.

Naim amplifiers are as transparent as any other modern SS amp, with low distortion, flat frequency response and low noise. I'm not fan of Naim as they are not unconditionally stable, but apart from that, they're no different to any other.

S.
 
positive_energy said:
Very simple: they can be very sensitive to source and setup. Feed with a good source and setup properly they are not bright. Ignore this and you will just get a lot of nasty noise. Naim go to great lengths to ensure noise is kept out of the amplification process but if you feed it with crap or run a power cable right over the speaker cable, crap is what you get! A lot of people on PFM buy their kit SH via here or eBay and do not benefit from the input of a dealer so they are often buying kit that has long since passed its service date and may well be incorrectly setup.
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What absolute arrant nonsense!

Chris
 
sergeauckland said:
I think a lot of this has to do with reputation and market image. Naim is bright, Quad is pipe&slippers, Cyrus is harsh and so on. As Mike showed above, the frequency response of Naim kit shows no sign of excessive brightness, if anything slightly recessed, not that anyone could hear a 1dB drop at 20kHz.

Naim amplifiers are as transparent as any other modern SS amp, with low distortion, flat frequency response and low noise. I'm not fan of Naim as they are not unconditionally stable, but apart from that, they're no different to any other.

S.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, I finaly managed to listen to a full Quad set-up and 'pipe & slippers' is the last thing I'd describe it as, unless you played some James Last on it...
 
I've got the NaitXS. Don't find it bright at all. It's nice and mellow. I actually got rid of the stageline because it wasns't bright enough for me. I prefer the rega source + naim amp combo, because rega makes it a little more brighter.
 
Agree with Serge there, including the questionable stability.
It's sometimes tempting to blame the output architecture, bieng quasi-complementary, but then so may other perfectly satisfactory amps are also (including lots of Quads).
 
I only found naim to be bright when it finally became all naim with the addition of SBLs.

I agree it is the speakers that are bright. The amps are fine imo, never noticed anything "unstable" about any naim amp I've owned. (42.5, 32.5, 72, 110, 140 and 160)
 
Brian said:
I only found naim to be bright when it finally became all naim with the addition of SBLs.

I agree it is the speakers that are bright. The amps are fine imo, never noticed anything "unstable" about any naim I've owned. (42.5, 32.5, 72, 110, 140 and 160)
Click to expand...

You only have to look at the Naim dealers that do not use Naim speakers...

They are legion...
 
Mike-B said:
...
2nd - Naim amps & CDP's are - if anything - rolled off at HF more than many other makers.
This typically starts around 20kHz & is a 2 or 3dB down a 50kHz.
Most other makes of amps are ~3dB down around 100kHz
Click to expand...
Given that anything over 20k is inaudible anyway unless you're a dog, this is neither here nor there. I can't hear above 16k, maybe less, so 2 or 3 dB at 50kHz really is a so-what.

I susoect it's about the leading edge presentation, behaviour in the inaudible zone is irrelevant to musical presentation.
 
Brian said:
I only found naim to be bright when it finally became all naim with the addition of SBLs.

I agree it is the speakers that are bright. The amps are fine imo, never noticed anything "unstable" about any naim amp I've owned. (42.5, 32.5, 72, 110, 140 and 160)
Click to expand...

Naim amps are unstable when faced with a capacitative load and not enough inductance, hence the requirement not to use short 'speaker cables and not to use high capacitance cables. In normal use, with a few metres of normal 'speaker cable, especially if of the spaced conductor variety, Naim amps are fine.

My dislike of them is based more on why make an amplifier that isn't unconditionally stable? It's not difficult, most other manufacturers do it, so why do Naim choose (and it is their choice) to build-in a technical limitation?

S.
 
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