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MDAC First Listen (part 00110100)

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jirij said:
I believe John refers to the ability to ADC the incoming signal and DAC it on the way out, achieving a similar effect to what an AV bypass would. Theoretically this could be very "transparent" as the signal could be kept in DSD256 (or so) between the ADC and DAC.
Click to expand...

Yes - correct, thank you for helping with the clarification :)

WRT the MDAC2 & FDAC "SOC" as time to market is so important and with the pending release of the RPi CM3 we have given up on the H3 solution - with first Beagle hardware, then H3 we hope for 3rd time lucky with RPi CM3!

We plan to have the MDAC2 SOC PCB to you in the 1st or 2nd week of January - but as the RPi CM3 module is not currently available we will supply it to you with the CM1 - will this be enough for you to start on the MDAC2 software? (the CM3 / MDAC2 audio pathway is via a secondary internal USB connection).

We will also supply our miniDAC with our XMOS based USB solution that we plan to use on the MDAC2 so you can confirm the stability / performance of the Linux USB drivers etc. test PCM 768KHz / DSD256 etc...

Now that the RPi CM3 is on the Horizon and with development time most critical :) we plan to also use the RPi CM3 on the FDAC - the only real loss is independent Front panel LCD and rear HDMI output ... but IMO its compromise we will have to live with - we can still have internal SSD and DVD drive via internal USB to Sata...

We plan that the MDAC2 Stage2 (SOC) PCB will have a connector on the PCB to allow connection of the FDAC's LCD and touch panel to allow FDAC software development (UI) etc. once the MDAC2 software development is out of the way - IMO I believe this is the fastest and most sensible route to FDAC after MDAC2... In the future this same connector also allows the MDAC2 front panel to be upgraded to touch panel LCD as a user upgradable retrofit...
 
You've paid none refundable development fees, you have the chance to swap out with someone who wants in to recover your investment. Timescales slip due to mission creep, we all knew that going in to this. We were all aware of the mdac's protracted three year gestation.

Shouting isn't going to get you special treatment, it just makes you less likely to be the beneficiary of someone who wants to buy a position on the project list.

Ffs, John promised me a tdac way back when I was buying his components for him right back at the start of development, do you see me throwing a hissy fit?

He'll deliver, he always has.
 
BE718 said:
I will keep making my point until the situation is resolved to my satisfaction.

I dont want to settle fo waiting to transfer for very simple reasons. Primarily I would still be at the mercy of John to complete the project. We all know how well thats gone. It is again a total unknown if anyone new will buy into this. Who would considering how its gone so far.

People need to get over this "no refund" statement. It doesnt stand up. John has not delivered what was paid for , namely the development, in the timescales stated. Simple. Under any other circumstance he would be under the scrutiny of trading standards. Crowd funding makes no difference to the principle involved here.

The end isnt in sight. Its been sounding "promising" for over 4 years. How many times has he previously promised this. Minich is just another meaningless promise.

When is the fdac going to be deliveted?

Perhaps John should be banned grom the forum for using it as a vehicle to promote his business which takes money from people without actually delivering what he promises?
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I, In fact, believe that your behaviour breaches the AUP of this forum.

The first statement could be linked to
pfm will not host lengthy multi-page cyclical debates that become more entrenched and aggressive with each repetition of a point. Certain audio topics seem particularly prone to this e.g. DBT / ABX testing and the whole subjective vs. objective debate. A poster may be banned from the forum should they not heed moderation requesting that a subject or repetitious viewpoint be dropped.
Click to expand...
and
The term ‘thread crapping’ describes a situation where a member makes a post that is clearly contrary to the spirit or intent of the thread with the apparent aim of derailing the discussion or turning it into an argument.
Click to expand...

and the overall question of refund to
Disputes with customers will not be hosted on this forum - they are obviously a private matter and beyond the scope of the site and may even be viewed as a reason to cancel a trade account.
Click to expand...

In all fairness, the AUP then continues on with
It is unacceptable for manufacturers or dealers to actively position or market their products in general audio discussion threads. All advertising must be contained within the provided trade or classified rooms.
Click to expand...

Therefore I would recommend that you resolve this privately with John.

Similarly, I recommend John to request this thread to be split/moved to appropriate forum section(s) - possibly leaving this one as Audiolab MDAC support thread, creating a new one for MDAC2/FDAC/etc. in the Trade section - interested people are going to find it regardless of where it is and conformance to forum rules is important exactly for situations like this one.


On a personal note, I think you should look into how "crowdfunding" works and how investments (and ie. stock market) work in general, to get a feel for the difference between buying a finished product and funding the development of an ongoing project.

Regarding dates, even the old archived website mentions that
Before presenting the planned project schedule, it is important to stress that any timeframes given are only our best estimates and cannot be relied upon completely. We are undertaking development of the very best DAC possible and that is the primary goal which necessarily takes precedence to meeting any self-inflicted deadlines.
Click to expand...

Like everyone, I too wish MDAC2/FDAC was here sooner, but I didn't pay for it. I paid for its development and trust that it yields some fruits and if not, I have only myself to blame for a wrong investment.

And that's me done stretching the AUP. :)

PS: Regarding FDAC delivery date - John answered it 3 posts above yours - http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3002709#post3002709.
 
Is John an upstanding citizen who you can ultimately trust? I'm about to sell an old broken Da Capo to someone who wants it for the parts. If I asked John to fix it for me instead I'm certain, based on past form with others, that he would offer to do that if I paid for the shipping and perhaps parts if they added up to a lot.
How many other people in the hi fi business would do that for a 20 year old product made by a company they are no longer associated with?

The answer is none.
 
jirij said:
I, In fact, believe that your behaviour breaches the AUP of this forum.

The first statement could be linked to

and


and the overall question of refund to


In all fairness, the AUP then continues on with


Therefore I would recommend that you resolve this privately with John.

Similarly, I recommend John to request this thread to be split/moved to appropriate forum section(s) - possibly leaving this one as Audiolab MDAC support thread, creating a new one for MDAC2/FDAC/etc. in the Trade section - interested people are going to find it regardless of where it is and conformance to forum rules is important exactly for situations like this one.


On a personal note, I think you should look into how "crowdfunding" works and how investments (and ie. stock market) work in general, to get a feel for the difference between buying a finished product and funding the development of an ongoing project.

Regarding dates, even the old archived website mentions that


Like everyone, I too wish MDAC2/FDAC was here sooner, but I didn't pay for it. I paid for its development and trust that it yields some fruits and if not, I have only myself to blame for a wrong investment.

And that's me done stretching the AUP. :)

PS: Regarding FDAC delivery date - John answered it 3 posts above yours - http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3002709#post3002709.
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Jiri,

This thread has been the most cyclic thread that has ever been seen on PFM. It has been 4 years of John claiming to be on the verge of delivering the MDAC2/FDAC.

Its not thread crapping, this is directly relevant to the thread - its what the thread is about.

John has clearly used the forum to market this venture, which looks like it is going to become quite commercial, and not a simple community project. I think if anyone is abusing the rules of the forum it is him.

With the greatest of respect I think it is you that has the misunderstanding here.

What John was offering was the development of this product within a timescale. This is CLEARLY stated on the website. Its not a month or 2 late, its 3 years late. The FDAC will be even more. I have decided to draw a line in the sand. I have been entirely reasonable and patient.

No John didnt answer my question regarding the FDAC, he said:

"Its hard to put a firm date on the FDAC"

Why would you blame yourself for investing in a product that wasnt delivered? That doesnt make sense. This situation really is not like the stock market in any way.

Oh BTW, if you look at my posts you will see that I have on several occassions asked John to contact me privately to resolve the situation. He has not.
 
sq225917 said:
You've paid none refundable development fees, you have the chance to swap out with someone who wants in to recover your investment. Timescales slip due to mission creep, we all knew that going in to this. We were all aware of the mdac's protracted three year gestation.

Shouting isn't going to get you special treatment, it just makes you less likely to be the beneficiary of someone who wants to buy a position on the project list.

Ffs, John promised me a tdac way back when I was buying his components for him right back at the start of development, do you see me throwing a hissy fit?

He'll deliver, he always has.
Click to expand...

No, I paid a fee to deliver the development of this product. As has already been pointed out the original website said nothing about "non refundable"

You are simply wrong about "we all knew" about extended development timescales. Timescales were explicitly stated and have subsequently been repeatedly revised and delayed.

John is the one responsible for project management, please stop trying to defend his failure to deliver, its a position without credibility.
 
BE718

from my point of view there are two kinds of participants here.
Ther first one is knowing about Johns Know How and experience and the confidence that he would do everything possible to deliver the best possible solution and try to satisfy every ones personal requirements ( thats one of the resons why such open discussed projects are very, very, very hard to be managed)
This type of participant is thankful for the chance to be part of such an unique project, beeing involved in technology discussion to find best solutions for all and sometimes recieving a product with an amazing price performance ratio.
The second one is the one who is not directly interested in all technical discussions and knowledge and he does not care about someone who pours his heart and soul into his work . He has only one reason for participating. Bying a superb product for as little money as possible.
But there is nothing you recieve as a gift. The second type should have been
clear on taking a risk with his participation.
So it is up to you to decide to which kind of participant you belong.

Christmas is just around the corner an I try to go for my good deed today.
So BE718 I can jump in for a second investment and take over yours but only on one condition. Please stop undermining this project.
 
BE718's reminding me of a joke:

A blonde was driving down the motorway when her car phone rang.
It was her husband, urgently warning her, “Honey, I just heard on the news that there’s a car going the wrong way on the M25. Please be careful!”
“It’s not just one car!” said the blonde.
“There’s f*ck*ng hundreds of them!”

PS apologies to all the Blondes.
 
Hi all,

I bought a MDAC something like 5 years ago. My product has a defect and my vendor says that he's got problems with IAG servicing. Looking for solutions i found this forum where someone claiming to be MDAC designer respond to users requests. I explain my problem and he offers me a free servicing (excluding transport of course). After few months my MDAC cames back from Czech republic working and a little bit modified. I never open it as it works since then.

Following the thread there's some upgrade options coming on (sovereign+). I was in the point to send my MDAC back to his father when he proposes to create a new mainboard instead of the horrid work of upgrading each unit. I follow.

Something like 3 years ago my father died. At the same time a new product has emerged in the shape of a new amp called VFET. As i gain some money i choose to follow because i know that my father (who was DIY hifi lover) would have done the same.

More recently is the DETOX. As computer scientist i know the reality of the effect of frequencies going thru the wires (it's not as simple as 0 and 1). I also know the price of mystical products which claims to eradicate such signals. Considering the DETOX offer I follow.

Since then products names have changed, specifications have been supercharged (I am not event sure of what is the exact state of my payments!) but the global spirit to be part of a human adventure still alive. The timescales are not what we have expected (and what john expected). Maybe other products arise in the market enhancing the competition but we have the unique chance to be part of a project which will, at the end, deliver us with unique products (I know, BE 718, it's a statement). When products arrives we all know that we will be proud because it's also a part of our lives (and maybe then we will be a little bit disappointed on the next morning when we will not have to follow john's new developments on this thread).

Bests
 
JohnW said:
Yes - correct, thank you for helping with the clarification :)

WRT the MDAC2 & FDAC "SOC" as time to market is so important and with the pending release of the RPi CM3 we have given up on the H3 solution - with first Beagle hardware, then H3 we hope for 3rd time lucky with RPi CM3!

We plan to have the MDAC2 SOC PCB to you in the 1st or 2nd week of January - but as the RPi CM3 module is not currently available we will supply it to you with the CM1 - will this be enough for you to start on the MDAC2 software? (the CM3 / MDAC2 audio pathway is via a secondary internal USB connection).

We will also supply our miniDAC with our XMOS based USB solution that we plan to use on the MDAC2 so you can confirm the stability / performance of the Linux USB drivers etc. test PCM 768KHz / DSD256 etc...

Now that the RPi CM3 is on the Horizon and with development time most critical :) we plan to also use the RPi CM3 on the FDAC - the only real loss is independent Front panel LCD and rear HDMI output ... but IMO its compromise we will have to live with - we can still have internal SSD and DVD drive via internal USB to Sata...

We plan that the MDAC2 Stage2 (SOC) PCB will have a connector on the PCB to allow connection of the FDAC's LCD and touch panel to allow FDAC software development (UI) etc. once the MDAC2 software development is out of the way - IMO I believe this is the fastest and most sensible route to FDAC after MDAC2... In the future this same connector also allows the MDAC2 front panel to be upgraded to touch panel LCD as a user upgradable retrofit...
Click to expand...

Good to see a useful post amongst all the noise that is going on. Thanks John
 
BE718 said:
No, I paid a fee to deliver the development of this product. As has already been pointed out the original website said nothing about "non refundable"
Click to expand...
It said nothing about giving refunds either. If you are going by what it did or didnt say then your just conflicting with yourself on this one im afraid.
BE718 said:
You are simply wrong about "we all knew" about extended development timescales. Timescales were explicitly stated and have subsequently been repeatedly revised and delayed.
Click to expand...
Now iv been here from the beginning and from memory it was pretty clear by john on the original website about how unreliable the stated time frame was. This was because the design took precedence over the timeframe as this was all about the journey to discover, learn, build something that was unreproachable. Undeniable in the passion to deliver something at a cost that would normally be unreachable to so many people. Now granted this has been long and fustrating for some. But if your hearts not in it, if you dont have the passion to carry on. Then dont try point a finger, man up. Take your options. Leave or hand the torch over, cause theres nothing else you can do. Nothing else that was promised to you. Nothing less that you should have expected if you had read into the detail presented when you were given the oppurtunity.
BE718 said:
John is the one responsible for project management, please stop trying to defend his failure to deliver, its a position without credibility.
Click to expand...

There has been no failure. Only success. Every time delay that has happend, happend for valid and true reasons. First he was conflicted with too much compromises which would have led to a less than ideal product. He didnt want to just make a product to turn over profit. If there is any ?, i dont know he seems well over worked. He wanted to produce what he promised. A product that showed his lifes work, a beauty he could be proud of. Made available cheaper than what would be provided by any mainline company. He also took a little time to trial what he had learned so far with the mdac2. Ultimately this is going to help towards the final design of the fdac. This also lead to the detox project, which could be a valuable tool in audio engineering for the future.

It could be just me, but iv loved this journey. Iv had absolutely no issues with the time involved. But that could be because i have built myself up from nothing and learned about signals and systems, electronics, data communication etc. My passion since this project started has probably changed my life, i have devoted so much of myself, even with my daily struggle with chronic illness and fatigue. Its driven me well beyond what i have ever thought and john has been there. Adamdea has been there. Sq has been there. Keven has been there. They know.

Im sorry if it seems rather sobby. But i just dont care.
Big thanks to you john. I appreciate all the times you have helped me with my questions, i hope more is to come.

PEACE.
 
DANOFDANGER said:
It said nothing about giving refunds either. If you are going by what it did or didnt say then your just conflicting with yourself on this one im afraid.

Now iv been here from the beginning and from memory it was pretty clear by john on the original website about how unreliable the stated time frame was. This was because the design took precedence over the timeframe as this was all about the journey to discover, learn, build something that was unreproachable. Undeniable in the passion to deliver something at a cost that would normally be unreachable to so many people. Now granted this has been long and fustrating for some. But if your hearts not in it, if you dont have the passion to carry on. Then dont try point a finger, man up. Take your options. Leave or hand the torch over, cause theres nothing else you can do. Nothing else that was promised to you. Nothing less that you should have expected if you had read into the detail presented when you were given the oppurtunity.


There has been no failure. Only success. Every time delay that has happend, happend for valid and true reasons. First he was conflicted with too much compromises which would have led to a less than ideal product. He didnt want to just make a product to turn over profit. If there is any ?, i dont know he seems well over worked. He wanted to produce what he promised. A product that showed his lifes work, a beauty he could be proud of. Made available cheaper than what would be provided by any mainline company. He also took a little time to trial what he had learned so far with the mdac2. Ultimately this is going to help towards the final design of the fdac. This also lead to the detox project, which could be a valuable tool in audio engineering for the future.

It could be just me, but iv loved this journey. Iv had absolutely no issues with the time involved. But that could be because i have built myself up from nothing and learned about signals and systems, electronics, data communication etc. My passion since this project started has probably changed my life, i have devoted so much of myself, even with my daily struggle with chronic illness and fatigue. Its driven me well beyond what i have ever thought and john has been there. Adamdea has been there. Sq has been there. Keven has been there. They know.

Im sorry if it seems rather sobby. But i just dont care.
Big thanks to you john. I appreciate all the times you have helped me with my questions, i hope more is to come.

PEACE.
Click to expand...

Great post!
 
JohnW said:
We plan to have the MDAC2 SOC PCB to you in the 1st or 2nd week of January - but as the RPi CM3 module is not currently available we will supply it to you with the CM1 - will this be enough for you to start on the MDAC2 software? (the CM3 / MDAC2 audio pathway is via a secondary internal USB connection).

We will also supply our miniDAC with our XMOS based USB solution that we plan to use on the MDAC2 so you can confirm the stability / performance of the Linux USB drivers etc. test PCM 768KHz / DSD256 etc...

Now that the RPi CM3 is on the Horizon and with development time most critical :) we plan to also use the RPi CM3 on the FDAC - the only real loss is independent Front panel LCD and rear HDMI output ... but IMO its compromise we will have to live with - we can still have internal SSD and DVD drive via internal USB to Sata...

We plan that the MDAC2 Stage2 (SOC) PCB will have a connector on the PCB to allow connection of the FDAC's LCD and touch panel to allow FDAC software development (UI) etc. once the MDAC2 software development is out of the way - IMO I believe this is the fastest and most sensible route to FDAC after MDAC2... In the future this same connector also allows the MDAC2 front panel to be upgraded to touch panel LCD as a user upgradable retrofit...
Click to expand...
Note that while the RPi/CM1 pinout is the same as RPi3/CM3, I'm not sure whether it's software compatible - the original RPi is 32bit ARMv6 and the RPi3 is 64bit ARMv8 (although official distributions run in 32bit mode) and I'm not sure if ARMv8 supports ARMv6 instruction set. This shouldn't be a big problem though, just that you might not be able to just swap the same SD card between both without a software update. I may be wrong and CM3 might be able to run CM1 software as-is.

With RPi, I'm pretty sure just using some off-the-shelf software (like volumio) would work as UAC2 has much more standard implementation than i2s (which is chip-specific), as long as the underlying USB driver is up to the job.

Native DSD (not DoP) will need a modified kernel (at least initially, I'll send patches upstream when MDAC2 is released), but I know what to modify. However I'll need to ask Jarek what endianess he decided to use for the raw mode when programming the XMOS chip. The supported formats/bitrate is something that the XMOS needs to announce via USB (I could theoretically override it, but it would be a hack).
Also note that I don't think any of the streaming services/protocols support DSD and I'm not sure if volumio / other software does - I can get it working on the "low level", but we may still need some GUI player software that can play it as most people probably won't want to type commands on the console.

I could (and would like to, maybe over time) create a minimalistic ~50MB system (everything in RAM) that would basically run all the streamer services with as low overhead as possible (ie. no GUI on HDMI), to hopefully cut on the RF radiation. I can even use the realtime kernel patchset if necessary. This could be used for FDAC as well, as long as the custom GUI is written in a language that doesn't eat all the RAM (ie. C++, not Java :)).

Regarding CM3 on FDAC - as long as Jarek can wire everything else up to the other MCU (some UART connection for programming the digital IO, etc.), it should be fine. The protocol for the embedded display should be well documented as there are several 3rd party displays for the RPi. Having Ethernet and SATA via internal USB sucks, but the speeds are not much better on the Allwinner, which still offloads most of the work to software (saving costs on dedicated HW) - you can't compare SATA speeds of a high end Intel desktop using a hardware-based controller with the ARM SoC emulating it in software.
 
JohnW said:
WRT the MDAC2 & FDAC "SOC" as time to market is so important and with the pending release of the RPi CM3 we have given up on the H3 solution - with first Beagle hardware, then H3 we hope for 3rd time lucky with RPi CM3!

We plan to have the MDAC2 SOC PCB to you in the 1st or 2nd week of January - but as the RPi CM3 module is not currently available we will supply it to you with the CM1 - will this be enough for you to start on the MDAC2 software? (the CM3 / MDAC2 audio pathway is via a secondary internal USB connection).
Click to expand...


I for one am very happy to see the move to a RPi based solution, there is so much more support and development on this platform vs the others that have been looked at that it will create a lot more options (so long as its core functionality suits). If you havent already it is worth getting in touch with Eben directly, especially if your after a good number of units..

Keep up the good work John, its greatly appreciated.

Sam
 
Very pleased with the move to RPi, as there is a lot of expertise out there for that platform, and it makes for a relatively future-proof solution, which is important for the small community of FDAC users, as I think we are all looking at this as a long term, or maybe for some of us, final DAC.
The delays, for me, have saved me a lot of money. I allocate a small amount of money each month for "luxuries" and normally what goes in, comes out, and it never amounts to much. Although my VFET and FDAC contributions emptied the fund, and other savings, since then I've not spent money chasing the "holy grail", because I think I know where it is, and I'm just patiently waiting for it to arrive.
I understand the frustration of those eager for new toys (as we all are) but to be really cynical, anyone on the FDAC list will, eventually, be the owner of possibly one of the best, and rarest DACs on the market. If you really don't want it at that time, there will be plenty of people out there prepared to spend way more than we have invested to join our exclusive club.
 
I'd like to say a VERY big thank you for the confidence and support in me - the VERY best Christmas present I could have :)

Looking forward to Munich and our PFM "get together" (and the first MDAC2's) :)
 
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