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LP12 subchassis - The 'RubiKon'

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How do we objectively assess whether it has been achieved without recourse to the master tapes?
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But since the signal is transformed between the master tape and the vinyl in an unknown way, such objectivity may remain out of reach. There's always the CD...

Paul
 
Alas, neither is true and I already have a spare white elephant in the loft.

Paul, I'd agree but as far as analogue (& assessing turntables) is concerned it'd be the best reference we could have. It might at least be possible to judge closeness to it.

The experiences I've had hearing half inch tape at high speed suggest that the gap is still quite significant although how much of that is down to the record manufacturing process, I'm not sure.
 
YNWOAN said:
Actually, I don't think the LP12 is anything like as coloured these days as it used to be. The many upgrades that Linn have developed have led to significantly increased transparency.
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Perhaps, but my point stands, there are other decks which are a closer starting point to your stated goal of neutrality and transparency, surely it would make more sense to start at a closer point? Unless of course, you like a challenge. :D Plus, you have the eternal problem that many LP12 buyers *like* the character.
 
i_should_coco said:
Plus, you have the eternal problem that many LP12 buyers *like* the character.
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As I suppose in a way do I as I preferred the Keel at the SO. I must admit thought that back at home I am more than happy with my LP12 and it certainly boogies along and has stunning detail and timbre resolution.
 
It's interesting that many people also seem to like the older LP12 - as Linn have stripped away colouration with the upgrades over the years, a number of people have stated that the don't like the new ones as much.

Is the goal really "high fidelity" in the literal sense of the word? Or just an enjoyable musical experience?
 
Well, I didn't choose the LP12 as such; I was asked (by Andrew) to apply my knowledge, ideas and experience to the design and development of a 'best solution' chassis for the LP12 - this I have endeavoured to do (the RubiKon). Whilst I stand by my earlier 'information retrieval and neutrality' statements, I also wanted to make sure that the existing positive qualities of the LP12 were not compromised or lost (inevitably my solution is different to the Keel - it is not intended to be a facsimile in any way).

As some of you know - a 'from scratch - ultimate solution' turntable is also in development (though this is not related to the RubiKon).

(it definitely will not be using three motors though ;))

_______________________

i_should_coco said:
It's interesting that many people also seem to like the older LP12 - as Linn have stripped away colouration with the upgrades over the years, a number of people have stated that the don't like the new ones as much.
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Yes, this is true; and those people should be happy that they have effectively achieved their personal audio Nirvana(;)) and no further refinement is required (or possible).
 
YNWOAN said:
Well, I didn't choose the LP12 as such; I was asked (by Andrew) to apply my knowledge, ideas and experience to the design and development of a 'best solution' chassis for the LP12 - this I have endeavoured to do (the RubiKon). Whilst I stand by my earlier 'information retrieval and neutrality' statements, I also wanted to make sure that the existing positive qualities of the LP12 were not compromised or lost (inevitably my solution is different to the Keel - it is not intended to be a facsimile in any way).
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Ah, but playing devil's advocate, would you say though that the positive qualities of the LP12 are related to it's character, though? I think this is the crux, by removing some of that character, you're going to upset some people and please others, I guess it's a kind of sliding scale. I do see it as a positive to have an alternative which is perhaps more towards the neutral end of the scale vs the perhaps moer characterful Linn solution.

As some of you know - a 'from scratch - ultimate solution' turntable is also in development (though this is not related to the RubiKon).
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How is that progressing? I'm gonna turn blue, holding my breath! :D


Yes, this is true; and those people should be happy that they have effectively achieved their personal audio Nirvana(;)) and no further refinement is required (or possible).
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Sadly this does seem like a common attitude, but I guess it's difficult to criticise if people are happy....
 
i_should_coco said:
Ah, but playing devil's advocate, would you say though that the positive qualities of the LP12 are related to it's character, though? I think this is the crux, by removing some of that character, you're going to upset some people and please others, I guess it's a kind of sliding scale. I do see it as a positive to have an alternative which is perhaps more towards the neutral end of the scale vs the perhaps moer characterful Linn solution.
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Well, it's all a matter of interpretation and individual perspective in the end. The 'modern' LP12 is significantly closer to my ideal of how a turntable should perform. In the end one has to design for oneself - 'by committee' never seems to work.

i_should_coco said:
How is that progressing? I'm gonna turn blue, holding my breath! :D
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Please don't hold your breath Pete as I would not wish to be responsible for you demise. Excellence is reasonably easily achieved....perfection takes a little longer (or quite a lot longer in my case) ;).

In truth, it has been on the 'back burner' recently for a number of reasons (RubiKon being one of them). However, progress will be resuming shortly :).

Better start saving though as it won't be cheap....in fact, it is very likely that it won't even be merely 'expensive'.....more like 'HOW MUCH....blimey!'.
 
So two weeks to go to the Cymbiosis session.

Combined observations from the Sound Org and Cymbiosis will direct our thoughts as to the future direction of the RubiKon.

Andrew.
 
One thing I noticed with the Keel versus the alternative sub-chassis' is the inclusion of three raised land areas around where the bearing contacts the sub-chassis. Is this something that was considered when developing the Rubicon? I know aluminum is relatively soft and would probably compress to make up for any imperfection between the two surfaces when tightening the two together but do you see any advantage to the three point mount that is also used with the Troika? Are the lands expensive to machine into the sub-chassis and perhaps the reason for not doing so?

Regards,
John
 
I considered it - the raised areas define contact area more closely and increase pressure applied at those points. On closer inspection the three point bolt arrangement of the bearing tends to give defined areas of contact around the bearing any way. The nature of the material used means that the mating surface is already level and flat so defining these terms is not necessary. On balance, I chose not to include this 'feature' as I felt it was largely unnecessary - I'm not convinced that increasing the bond any further is necessarily a good idea at this point.

It's not that expensive to do within the context of the whole - the armboard is a significantly more elaborate and time consuming piece of machining.
 
Thanks Mark,

Do you use the standard Linn fasteners for fastening the arm collar and bearing to the sub-chassis? I've been instructed to use stainless steel washers under the socket bolts for both the bearing and arm collar and not to use the locking washers that are normally used with the laminate arm board.

I wonder how it's done with the Keel?

John
 
The Keel has an integrated arm collar so the question doesn't arise.

FWIW I don't think you need washers in this particular application.

Paul
 
Paul Ranson said:
FWIW I don't think you need washers in this particular application.

Paul
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I was told it spreads the clamp load and protects the mating materials. I imagine sonically we're splitting hairs. I still wonder if Linn eschews washers with the Keel.
 
From memory the SO didn't use washers mounting the Ekos SE to the RubiKon so I imagine they dont with the Keel.
 
flatpopely said:
From memory the SO didn't use washers mounting the Ekos SE to the RubiKon so I imagine they dont with the Keel.
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The reason I mentioned the washer with David from Greenstreet was because of the locking nuts that come with the Ekos arm collar. He said to use flat stainless steel washers instead a get the appropriate sized ones for the bearing socket screws as well. There are four different sized bearing screws depending on what bearing you have.
 
Just sharing information. :) Since we're dealing with sub-chassis made from the same material I was curious how others were attaching the various bits. I kind of assumed using locking washers with that type of material was likely not correct.
 
If you mean the star washers that Linn use with the MDF composite armboards - then no, not necessary with the RubiKon. You can't crush the aluminium armboard of the RubiKon in the same way as one can the Linn MDF item, so sprung, load spreading washers are not needed.

I can't speak for Greenstreet (or anybody else) - they may have different ideas (I suppose) - I don't know.
 
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