LP12 or not LP12, the question! (Linn Sondek)

[Robert]

When you rebuild/refurbish/upgrade your TT with a 3rd party plinth, topplate, power supply, tone arm etc. would you still consider it to be a Linn Sondek LP12?

No, with the exception of the arm change.

It's a different turntable which happens to look like an LP12, for better or worse re sound.
Those changes are too fundamental. You can argue where tweaking stops and re-design starts and everyone will have a view but certainly if you start making radical changes to the sub-chassis, top plate and plinth which differ fundamentally from the original design (kiln dried hardwood plinth - pressed steel sub-chassi - laminated arm board - tidly bolts - two piece mazak platter - felt mat - synchronous motor - suspension) then that's beyond tweaking IMO. More so when you perform several of these changes at once.
The LP12 isn't a living thing - it has no spirit or soul which somehow transcends fundamental mechanical changes to the design.

On a purely personal note, an LP12 must have a fluted plinth IMO. It's a part of the classic LP12 look and it also streamlines the otherwise rather chunky, boxy looking design. By all means choose the prettiest wood you can find, but it needs fluting.
I've never really got the idea of transforming the old style LP12. It has a sound (one i like) and many of the official and unofficial changes simply make it sound more like other good TTs from Michell, Roksan, Rega etc, or even Pink, Systemdec or Logic of old who pioneered many of these changes long before they found their way into a Linn.

 

[Fox]

On any given day you're likely to see enough parts on eBay to build up a whole Sondek. I've never tried to price it, though, compared to what older low-spec Sondeks are going for. Sometimes it's apparent that older whole turntables are being parted out on eBay, so the sellers must think the parts are worth more than the whole.

Its something I started as a project before the fire, a lot of the non vogue parts go for considerably less than in vogue so aim for say 79/80s classic, avoid the urge to over spec and go for the unsexy parts: an afromosa fluted body usually goes for a lot less than a solid wood oak or maple plinth, same with the black ash (which I think is heading for a fashion revival soon), non cirkus bearings are going up in price I see (coming into vogue?) top plates are interesting because while I could pick up any old top plate I've seen various aftermarket top plates being sold as new variants come along and different styles and motor orientations, I dimly remember owning an Lp12 with a motor in a different position for some reason and already you are in dangerously non purist Lp12 territory.

Arm wise is where things get £pendy I would personally choose an Ekos1 and get it serviced because "Ekos1 = buggered bearings/stuck anti skate" are the stuff of Legend and people skip to the Ekos 2/SE or the Eye watering cost of an ARO.

Its fun, and that's what DIY assembly ought to be above and beyond anything else, a sense of satisfaction "I made that" and a little rebellious feeling of making something from parts consigned to countless top drawers or the scrap heap.

I think that is also partly why I like retips -- the number of boutique buggered carts in top drawers out there that can just be put to some use again, it's not for the purists, but it is a lot of fun.

 

[Olli I]

Does anyone know if a corned braced plinth need any modification if I use Rega RB251 tonearm?

 

[Gaius]

Does anyone know if a corned braced plinth need any modification if I use Rega RB251 tonearm?

Not sure about the 251 but I would imagine you would need to, I had a RB300 on one and needed to cut away the brace a bit, no big deal though.

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af251/gaius1/Walnut/image_zpsff17697d.jpg

 

[Olli I]

Not sure about the 251 but I would imagine you would need to, I had a RB300 on one and needed to cut away the brace a bit, no big deal though.

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af251/gaius1/Walnut/image_zpsff17697d.jpg

That is pretty much. Maybe I should think about getting Ittok the same time as changing to corner braced plinth. Is that much better arm than Rega?

 

[Gaius]

That is pretty much. Maybe I should think about getting Ittok the same time as changing to corner braced plinth. Is that much better arm than Rega?

I went from a RB300/Denon110 to Ittok/Troika years ago, it's an unfair comparison because the Trokia is way better than the 110 but I felt it a jump up for sure.

Over the years I have had so many incarnations of the LP12 but last year Derek Jenkins built me a baby player, pre Cirkus/Valhalla/RB300 (J7 IKEDA Re wire)/Denon 103 and it was so much greater than the sum of its parts, not the last word on detail, not the most accurate but such a good listen, great fun and highly musical; certainly one of my favourite players.

We then put an Ekos 1 (J7 re wire)/DV 20XL2 on the player, it should have slaughtered it but it didn't, yeah it was better but it was like meh when you think of the extra cost.

I have also done a very interesting comparison with Aro v Ittok v Ekos SE.

Now there are some who favour the ARO and would not have anything else and I both respect and understand that, I ran an ARO/Geddon player for a while in an active SBL set up and loved it.

However, I felt the Ittok (J7 IKEDA re wire) was better at the top and bottom and shared a lot, and I mean a lot in common with the just inside £4K Ekos SE.

Pound for pound the Ittok was the winner IMO.

So, a nice J7 re wired Ittok might just be the way to go!

It's what I'm using right now.

 

[James]

Is there one component that marks the threshold between "Linn" and "non-Linn", or is it a matter of a certain percentage of parts? Curious what people might think.

Yes, the serial number plate affixed on the rear of the plinth that says:

"Linn Sondek LP12 Transcription Turntable"

 

[9designs]

I went from a RB300/Denon110 to Ittok/Troika years ago, it's an unfair comparison because the Trokia is way better than the 110 but I felt it a jump up for sure.

Over the years I have had so many incarnations of the LP12 but last year Derek Jenkins built me a baby player, pre Cirkus/Valhalla/RB300 (J7 IKEDA Re wire)/Denon 103 and it was so much greater than the sum of its parts, not the last word on detail, not the most accurate but such a good listen, great fun and highly musical; certainly one of my favourite players.

We then put an Ekos 1 (J7 re wire)/DV 20XL2 on the player, it should have slaughtered it but it didn't, yeah it was better but it was like meh when you think of the extra cost.

I have also done a very interesting comparison with Aro v Ittok v Ekos SE.

Now there are some who favour the ARO and would not have anything else and I both respect and understand that, I ran an ARO/Geddon player for a while in an active SBL set up and loved it.

However, I felt the Ittok (J7 IKEDA re wire) was better at the top and bottom and shared a lot, and I mean a lot in common with the just inside £4K Ekos SE.

Pound for pound the Ittok was the winner IMO.

So, a nice J7 re wired Ittok might just be the way to go!

It's what I'm using right now.

Interesting comparison, so rewire on my Ekos2 (owned since new) could be good/better option than an upgrade to an exdem SE?

 

[Klyde]

Are you still the same after a brain transplant? -Of course a Linn LP12 isn't a Linn LP12 anymore if you exchange all of its vital parts!

A Naim LP12 is a Naim LP12, a completely different player (with some Linn parts left).

 

[Olli I]

I have the Isoda cabling with bullet plugs on my Roksan Xerxes (Artemiz tonearm). It would be great to get Ittok with Isoda and bullet plugs. Do you know for how much those are selling?

 

[Gaius]

Interesting comparison, so rewire on my Ekos2 (owned since new) could be good/better option than an upgrade to an exdem SE?

Depends on the cost of the SE.

The SE has an awful lot of detail, it is a superb arm although can sound a little cold and etched sometimes.

The Ekos 2 is the one I have not yet tried.

Certainly I'd talk to Johnnie at Audio Origami.

 

[Gaius]

Are you still the same after a brain transplant? -Of course a Linn LP12 isn't a Linn LP12 anymore if you exchange all of its vital parts!

A Naim LP12 is a Naim LP12, a completely different player (with some Linn parts left).

Linn view the LP12 as an open platform. I think the heart of the player is the bearing.

The new Linn Kore sub chassis is manufactured to accept Naim, Rega and SME mounts, together of course with Linn.

BTW, the Kore sounds very good indeed.

 

[per-Sony-fied]

We then put an Ekos 1 (J7 re wire)/DV 20XL2 on the player, it should have slaughtered it but it didn't, yeah it was better but it was like meh when you think of the extra cost.

I have also done a very interesting comparison with Aro v Ittok v Ekos SE.


However, I felt the Ittok (J7 IKEDA re wire) was better at the top and bottom and shared a lot, and I mean a lot in common with the just inside £4K Ekos SE.

Pound for pound the Ittok was the winner IMO.

So, a nice J7 re wired Ittok might just be the way to go!

Of course you'd expect the Ekos SE to shine tho' in the full blown deck & show the inefficiences of the Ittok in same.

Likewise a Ittok is essentially an Ekos with poorer bearings and longer (read weaker) headshell. I thought the Ittok was quite a poor performer at the top end but I've never heard a J7 fettled one.

For me, my money goes on the Ekos 2.