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Low Cost Flights - are they dangerous?

Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Yes in Europe. 300 hours for a newly qualified first officer is, and has always been, permissible. Captains require many more hours, 1500 being the minimum they need to even give them the licence to take command of a passenger aircraft, but typically they’ll have several multiples of that before they get their command, even in a LCA. Sounds like the programme might have been a tad over excited.
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They usually are...
 
Cav said:
If I were hiring a pilot, or any skilled tradesperson, I would want to see hard evidence of competence. Interviews, in isolation, are the very worst way to hire anyone.
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Not sure if you were questioning my post or just adding to it but yes of course any highly skilled job requirement needs evidence. I was just making the point you could have all candidates with that evidence so leaving you to select the individual based on other factors... such as attitude, presentation, image or whatever.
 
cutting42 said:
A pilot once told me the only stat he cares about is having the same number of landings as take offs
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Hmmm, all takeoffs are inevitably followed by a landing... good landings are on a runway with the aircraft and it’s passengers intact.
 
I'm not a frequent flyer. My first ever flight was on a Boeing 720B to Crete in 1979. Thoroughly enjoyed the experience. I've never flown on a 747 and would like to remedy that before they are totally phased out of passenger work. Seem to be mostly Virgin Transatlantic and BA now though and I really can't just hop over the pond to 'bag' an aeroplane.
Other end of the scale another immensely enjoyable flight was Manchester-Glasgow in an ATP.

My youngest flies a lot.. especially Manchester-Dubai and onwards to Bangladesh/India/Hong Kong etc. She loves the A380 (massive.. 4 engines) and considers almost anything smaller as not much above a glider.

I do rather like the idea of 4 engines though.. especially for long overwater flights. I'm booked on a TUI owned Boeing 787 Dreamliner to Mexico in March. A 10 hour flight. Only two engines.. They may be big and powerful.. but there are still only two. I'm reminded of a comment made years ago about the British Navy's 'Multi Role Ships'. "Yep.. they are very capable,.. but they can only be in one place at a time.."

Two engines if fair enough for many purposes I suppose.. but the General Electric (as opposed to Rolls Royce) engines which TUI have, are rated at (I think) 320 minutes 'ETOPS'. I can't recall what ETOPS means officially, but the joke is 'Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim'. This means they can be FIVE HOURS AND TWENTY MINUTES away from a suitable alternative landing place at any point in the flight. I've noticed they fly pretty much straight across the big pond to the Yucatan and I wouldn't much enjoy the prospect of an engine loss in the middle of the Atlantic. If you can lose one....

The logical next move as reliability and efficiency move in that direction.. is single engined massive planes..... :eek:
 
cutting42 said:
Not sure if you were questioning my post or just adding to it but yes of course any highly skilled job requirement needs evidence. I was just making the point you could have all candidates with that evidence so leaving you to select the individual based on other factors... such as attitude, presentation, image or whatever.
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After a final redundancy.. I attended 8 interviews in my 64th year. All for jobs which I was to say the least.. experienced and qualified, or over qualified for. I was being interviewed by people who weren't even born when I started in my profession. I didn't land a single one of those jobs, but I can guarantee you I'd have done any of them as well as, or better than whoever did land them.

It has long been known.. as stated above.. that the 'interview' is the least informative process for assessing a potential employee.
 
Indeed. I think the interview is stil useful in terms of 'Do we like../Can we get on with.. etc this person..?' But as an assessment of competence it is rubbish. And then of course we get into the whole issue of how to define 'competence.'
 
Dunno about others here.. but any 'fear of flying', I have.. is a based pretty much entirely on the fact that once I'm 'locked in' to the plane.. I cannot get off until other people say so.
Air travel is pretty much unique in this regard. You can get off a bus at a stop..you can jump off a ship. irrespective of whether it's a good idea. But on a plane.. you are staying on it until you are allowed off.. or some other circumstance obtains. You really do surrender control of your fate, such that the statistics become meaningless....
 
TheDecameron said:
I’ve been flown by Israeli pilots in small, inexpensive airlines in Africa. I didn’t stop to ask them how many hours theyd clocked up and we took off and landed in some scary airfields. I worked on the principle they wanted to stay above ground at least as much as I did.
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You know, there may be a huge gap between the wish to stay above ground and between the ability to do that...

Arye
 
wyjsar said:
In your shoes I'd look at the safety record of the airlines concerned vs traditional model ones. And then I'd consider the trustworthiness of the media channel you've been watching and wonder what else they try to scare you about without foundation.
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Between the lines the channel was trying to suggest that it is better to fly with El Al but the question is if what they told about pilots is true, I think that it is.
I think that LCF must announce to public if it is using pilots that are paying in order to work.

Arye
 
I've been in aviation since 1981 and spent the 2000s in civvie aviation.

2017, worldwide, there were zero airliner hull losses.

All aviation in the industrialised world is on a continuous improvement programme.

Safety is paramount at all times.

Audits are regular and encompass all aspects of any company involved in aviation.

I can't be bothered to find the graphs to show this, but since 1950, the exponential curve of the increase in passenger flying hours has been echoed by a correspond curve showing a drop in incidents.

Ref. The Air France crash in the Atlantic. That has been analysed and dealt with. Unlikely to happen again.

Arye, do you have any stats to show an increase in aircraft accidents since the spread of LCAs in the 1990s? And would you be happy to pay, say, 5 to 10 times the current ticket prices to have the world's best pilot on every single flight?
 
Tony Lockhart said:
I've been in aviation since 1981 and spent the 2000s in civvie aviation.

2017, worldwide, there were zero airliner hull losses.

All aviation in the industrialised world is on a continuous improvement programme.

Safety is paramount at all times.

Audits are regular and encompass all aspects of any company involved in aviation.

I can't be bothered to find the graphs to show this, but since 1950, the exponential curve of the increase in passenger flying hours has been echoed by a correspond curve showing a drop in incidents.

Ref. The Air France crash in the Atlantic. That has been analysed and dealt with. Unlikely to happen again.

Arye, do you have any stats to show an increase in aircraft accidents since the spread of LCAs in the 1990s? And would you be happy to pay, say, 5 to 10 times the current ticket prices to have the world's best pilot on every single flight?
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The article was based on testimonies including one about LCA flight that was taking wrong course to target airport, seemed like the pilots lost the way.

The primary thing that I want is the LCAs inform us if they are cutting budget in subjects relating to flying and then I decide if I take the risk.
I think that if there is even the smallest difference between regular flights and LCA flights and it is hidden from us, then it is a great wrong.

Arye
 
The rise of LCAs with loads of efficient new Airbus planes has forced the flagship carriers to replace aged thirsty Boeing fleets to remain competitive. This has cut accidents due to metal fatigue. These days the pilot has very little to do with flight safety as most of the journey is automated.
The biggest threat to flight safety these days is random economic sanctions affecting maintenance.
 
Cav said:
If I were hiring a pilot, or any skilled tradesperson, I would want to see hard evidence of competence. Interviews, in isolation, are the very worst way to hire anyone.
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Which is pretty much what all airlines do. Prospective crew will undergo a 'sim check' - a flight in a simulator where their competence is assessed - as well as interviews and psychometric tests. Ayre has been taken in by a sensationalist bit of reportage.
 
davidsrsb said:
The rise of LCAs with loads of efficient new Airbus planes has forced the flagship carriers to replace aged thirsty Boeing fleets to remain competitive. This has cut accidents due to metal fatigue. These days the pilot has very little to do with flight safety as most of the journey is automated.
The biggest threat to flight safety these days is random economic sanctions affecting maintenance.
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I think that pilots have little to do when everything is OK.
I definitely don't want to be on board when something goes wrong and inexperienced pilots are in the cockpit.
I think that I see piloting differently than most of you here.

Arye
 
ariegur said:
I think that pilots have little to do when everything is OK.
I definitely don't want to be on board when something goes wrong and inexperienced pilots are in the cockpit.
I think that I see piloting differently than most of you here.

Arye
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You probably do. But those of us who have some understanding of the industry (I worked in the pilot training industry for 20 years) know you are mistaken.
 
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