Loudspeakers That Do It All
- Thread starter ryder
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jandl100
Box swapping classical fan
Oh yes much easier.I think yours are easier to drive than mine - 81 dB sensitivity - muscle required.
I suspect those big aluminium panels need serious amperage to get flexing.
The 116f are easy peasy to drive.
Watching a tiny 8wpc t-amp strut its stuff with them is nothing short of ridiculous!
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Salamander
pfm Member
camverton
pfm Member
Intriguing! I have found that my smaller MBL 126 needs a decent quality and reasonably powerful amp. Perhaps I listen louder although it has to be said that I like an amp to get out of the way and let the MBL omni elements strut their stuff in creating a realistic illusion of musicians. I don’t think MBL need any contrary character in partnering equipment to make them sound their best. Oddly enough, to my ears, MBLs own C51 amp imparts a certain amount of warmness to the sound and I found their speakers best with a more neutral Hegel. Mind you the MBL amp works very well with Quad electrostatics.
All of which just goes to show that we all have different tastes and that not only is there not a speaker for all people but neither is their partnering equipment.
camverton
pfm Member
Exactly. It is a curious thing that with my German Physiks speakers a cellist, singer or string quartet sound as though they playing 2m behind the speakers at the end of my room but put on a recording of a symphony orchestra and it is as if the end of my room has turned into a window onto a concert hall beyond. Clever thing the mind! Even cleverer, maybe, to design a speaker that is so good at fooling at least some of the minds some of the time.
To me, "do it all" means a loudspeaker which is able play all music genres with spectacular results. I have read about people saying that their speakers are well rounded and can play all types of music very well. This may be true for speakers costing above £20k such as the MBLs mentioned on this thread which I will never be able to afford. Nevertheless, in my limited experience with speakers costing up to £7k, I have not experienced one that can do everything reasonably well. Of course, it may be able to play everything well enough, but I find speakers which sound good with jazz or acoustic music does not sound too good when playing rock, or vice versa.
A disclaimer is the quality of recording plays a huge role in affecting the listening experience as mentioned earlier. It can be a case of varied expectations too as different people have different expectations, some high some low.
John Phillips
pfm Member
Playing music with spectacular results, with apologies, just kicks the can down the road. Different people will have different definitions of spectacular results.
I think you can have loudspeakers that do it all for my definition. I conclude that because I have (active) loudspeakers that IMHO do play everyhing I throw at them very well indeed. That includes rock, jazz, acoustic classical music from the delicate to the massive and loud, human voice, move scores etc. I wouldn't expect them to reproduce the very lowest notes in organ music and they have more limited visceral slam than I get from some live experience. I can live with that.
Actually I would not say "spectacular". They just do nothing wrong with well-recorded music when compared to my live music experience. However they do list at circa £16k these days and on this very thread they have been described as having "laughably huge chinks in their armour". They clearly do not qualify in that quarter, but they certainly do qualify for me. However, do do they qualify for you? Experience tells me I couldn't predict that.
camverton
pfm Member
Ah, another MBL or German Physiks user!
No, wouldn’t give them house room.
S-Man
StrivingON
To do it all, a pair of speakers needs to cover the full audio bandwidth and be able to play fairly loud. That rules out small speakers.
Big omnis might do it for some. IME they give an astonishing impression of a real concert hall when playing classical but they fall to bits on timing when required to play rock music.
Big ATCs produce bass that I couldn't live with.
Big panels probably get closest to doing it all, but they need positioning correctly in a sympathetic room.
Dutch and Dutch 8Cs were very competent (in my room), but not top class.
I didn't hear anything at the Munich Show that did it all, most were not very good at anything except loudness and sounding "hi-end".
Never heard Beolab 90s. Maybe they can do it all?
Thankfully there are speakers that are enjoyable to listen to, without doing it all.
Big omnis might do it for some. IME they give an astonishing impression of a real concert hall when playing classical but they fall to bits on timing when required to play rock music.
Big ATCs produce bass that I couldn't live with.
Big panels probably get closest to doing it all, but they need positioning correctly in a sympathetic room.
Dutch and Dutch 8Cs were very competent (in my room), but not top class.
I didn't hear anything at the Munich Show that did it all, most were not very good at anything except loudness and sounding "hi-end".
Never heard Beolab 90s. Maybe they can do it all?
Thankfully there are speakers that are enjoyable to listen to, without doing it all.
camverton
pfm Member
They occasionally come up ex dem or used. I bought my 126’s nearly seven years ago at about 1/3 of the then retail price. They have their limitations though, and whilst they sounded great in a heavily damped 15x10 foot room they struggled in a 27x13 ft room. If someone wants a “do most genres” speaker they probably need to look at the models Colin and Jerry have. Even so they aren’t ideal for all people as apart from the amount of space you have to have around them not everyone wants a realistic illusion of musicians playing in their home, and at least to my eyes MBL and German Physiks aren’t the prettiest object to have dominating a room. For those who like to analyse the recording or are more into electronica or rock, cardioids or studio style monitors monitors could be a better choice although I personally haven’t found any to play all genres of music wonderfully; more a case of doing some very well and adequate for others.
The trouble with these threads is that most of us have a tendency to eulogise over the speakers we have chosen. Not unreasonable given that we’ve likely spent a fair wad of cash on them and so it can seem anathema for anyone to suggest that they won’t play all genres equally wonderfully well - even if they can’t…
Birdseed007
Audio scribe
I've had Kan's, SBL's and now passive ATC SCM40's on the end of my Naim system. To be honest I was never really happy with the Kan's or SBL's - for all their articulation they just didn't have enough scale or bandwidth although they are both superb for female vocals and singer songwriter type stuff. About 20 years ago I reviewed a pair of ATC SCM20 standmounts for HFN and they blew my SBL's into the weeds. I knew then that this was the sound I had been chasing in my head for years. When I turned 50 I decided to just slap the 40's on a credit card on o% and it's been the single biggest upgrade of my 35 years in pursuit of audio quality. Yes I know the active 40's are even better but as a reviewer actives are just a no-go.
The SCM40 has all the speed and transparency and detail of the SBL's (in fact even more) but crucially combines that with weight and gravitas and bass extension to provide flat frequency response in my room down to 22Hz and there's not much below that save for the very deepest organ pedals.
At £4000 frankly they along with things like the GyroDec and Rega P10 are amongst the hi-fi bargains of the century - no question... I've heard £20k speakers that couldn't hold a candle to them. Their only real foible is that they need a bit of volume to hit their sweet spot. They're OK at low listening levels but nothing special and the magic happens when you get to peaks of around 80-85dB at the listening position. I suspect this is because those massive, heavy and over-engineered ATC drivers just need a certain amount of juice to really get moving.
Yes there are certainly other loudspeakers out there that 'do it all' but this is probably the lowest cost loudspeaker that really does give you everything with supreme accuracy and quality. Essentially with ATC the sonic signature remains incredibly consistent as you move up the range and you choose which model suits your needs based upon room size and desired SPL.
Birdseed
The SCM40 has all the speed and transparency and detail of the SBL's (in fact even more) but crucially combines that with weight and gravitas and bass extension to provide flat frequency response in my room down to 22Hz and there's not much below that save for the very deepest organ pedals.
At £4000 frankly they along with things like the GyroDec and Rega P10 are amongst the hi-fi bargains of the century - no question... I've heard £20k speakers that couldn't hold a candle to them. Their only real foible is that they need a bit of volume to hit their sweet spot. They're OK at low listening levels but nothing special and the magic happens when you get to peaks of around 80-85dB at the listening position. I suspect this is because those massive, heavy and over-engineered ATC drivers just need a certain amount of juice to really get moving.
Yes there are certainly other loudspeakers out there that 'do it all' but this is probably the lowest cost loudspeaker that really does give you everything with supreme accuracy and quality. Essentially with ATC the sonic signature remains incredibly consistent as you move up the range and you choose which model suits your needs based upon room size and desired SPL.
Birdseed
Alex S
carbon based lifeform
Like many here I’ve had a few and still have four pairs. Presuming the electronics are well matched, how much of all that they can do and with which genres is determined by the room and the listening position at least as much as the brand or model. Sitting closer to your speakers is usually a substantial upgrade.
Salamander
pfm Member
Hazelberry
sister
It reminds me of when I was kid, with boys & their bikes.
I’ve said it before: speaker satisfaction - which is really the crux of the discussion here - is entirely dependent on ones personal requirements. Again, I wouldn’t expect LS3/5as - which, right now, do it all (or closely enough) for me - to be the "be all & end all" for all other audiophiles.
Shirley, the issue is ... would other spkrs make those genres sound even better!!??
Although, as HB posted:
And what one listens to - people whose taste runs to female vocals plus guitar are likely to be more easily pleased than those who like to listen to Bach organ music.
And that, to me, is key!
Case in point - a mate of mine recently bought some (s/hand) MBL 101s. The person he bought them from had only had them for a few months - he got rid of them because, as he told Con ... just didn't "float his boat". Which is not surprising since he was driving them with a 100w amp - admittedly, a very expensive one (Vitus maybe?).
Con could see that the MBLs weren't delivering what they were capable of - so he uses:
* a pair of 250w ARC tube monoblocs for the mids & tweeters
* with a pair of 2400w (into 4 ohms) Class D monoblocs for the bass
* plus 2x 18" sealed subs!
The spkrs - in his 11m x 6m acoustically-treated room - sound absolutely amazing. They are the only spkrs I've heard (and before Con bought the MBLs, we went to listen to a few $300K spkrs) that really do "deliver it all" - but they do need subs!
Hazelberry
sister
Are you referring to the LS3/5as? The ones I enjoy Stravinsky, Motorhead, & PiL Metal Box/Second Edition on? Girl & guitar hardly gets a look in here!Shirley, the issue is ... would other spkrs make those genres sound even better!!??
Although, as HB posted:
And what one listens to - people whose taste runs to female vocals plus guitar are likely to be more easily pleased than those who like to listen to Bach organ music.
Without going into detail, I do agree about amplification.
This is the trouble with most comments on forums that are supporting most system "up-grades"...
I use speakers that I got second-hand in 1974, and they have remained in essentially the same system that has not changes since the late 1980's. The sound is quite satisfactory for me, and has been since the changes to amplifiers in the 1980's. They will sound inadequate to many here, and they will not suit everyone, and they will not suit every type of music.
Modern fashion has delivered a different voicing to speakers, and for me at least (and bearing in mind my old ears) do not appeal. There is much that can be explored here, and not in this thread perhaps.
Like automobile design, the desire for manufacturers (and salesman) is to get the market place to buy a new model every few years. Ford started this when he had mobilised the masses of America, and he could see his sales declining. Cars could be made to last a lifetime, ask a classic car owner? Do the new models deliver anything more than driving from a to b? Maybe a discussion also for another thread.
My ancient speakers were well designed with clear objectives (that might have stood the test of time but for fashion change) and were extensively and expensively researched (which has lead to some of the fashion developments, spin off designs if you like) and delivered the objective.
If you have not guessed, I have used Rogers BBC Studio Monitors since 1974!
Also I have speakers that are used in a near field situation at my desk in the dining room.
Of course your experience will be quite different...