Julf
Facts are our friends
No, I say "it's not there, so we don't need empty space for it".
Loudness Wars, is the end actually coming?
- Thread starter Cjm75
- Start date
No, I say "it's not there, so we don't need empty space for it".
Julf
Facts are our friends
Unfortunately many "professionals" consider the latter "more professional".
Sack the lot of them!
Julf
Facts are our friends
Actually, this is what the "pros" are saying (in this case, "acclaimed record producer" Mark J. Feist):
"According to Feist, the overall solution to the problem posed by the loudness war is changing the bit rates of final audio files to a higher format than 16 bit: We have amazing digital technology to record the masters, using multi-track programs like Avid Pro-Tools, and record most of the finished product in 32 bit at 48k, yet because of the CD format, we dither our final master down to 16 bit. This is eliminating so much of the headroom, which would make compression cleaner and ultimately make the audio sound ever better and even louder. Im all about pushing records to very loud sonic levels but without compression that destroys the depth, fidelity and width of the final mastered stereo file.
So the great thing about 32 bit vs. 16 bit is that you can go to 11 ("even louder").
P.S. Extra bonus for calling 16 bit a "bit rate". But it is of course all dithered down...
That article says it all, thanks Julf, I could not have backed up my statements any better 
SEPTEMBER 26, 2014
When Will the Loudness War End?
ART & MUSIC TECHNOLOGY
By Kristin Houser, iQ Contributor & Editor of LA Music Blog
When Will the Loudness War End?
How the rise of tablets and mobile devices transform the way music is heard.
Turn that music down! is no longer a phrase reserved for grumpy grandparents and other curmudgeons. It turns out the music being released today really is louder than ever, a phenomenon sparking a cultural debate known as the Loudness War.
An estimated 42 percent of American adults now own tablets, 58 percent own smartphones and roughly half of those owners report that they use their devices to listen to music. With consumers able to access more songs than ever thanks to this widespread use of handheld devices, modern recording mixers and engineers feel pressure to differentiate their files from the multitude of others.
Given the fact that it is easy for people to compare one audio file to another, you always want your product to stand out, said acclaimed record producer Mark J. Feist, who has worked with such pop titans as Beyoncé, Celine Dion and Mary J Blige. All gadgets have speakers nowadays, from cell phones to watches to computers to headphones to Bluetooth speakers that are small and monophonic. It is important that records are competitive, clean and loud on any reference speaker they are played.
"To achieve that loudness, engineers turn to audio compression. By condensing digital music files to fit within predetermined aural ranges making the quiet parts louder and the loud parts quieter sound engineers are able to increase each tracks overall volume. In the process of doing so, however, they risk sacrificing the clarity and nuances of the original file.
Unfortunately, many of todays younger music fans have spent their whole lives listening to compressed music files. Therefore, they dont even know that there is a battle being waged over audio compression or understand exactly what is being debated with the loudness war.
As Snoop Dogg says in The Distortion of Sound, a 2014 documentary on the subject of audio compression, The listener doesnt know, so he doesnt care. He doesnt even know that [the music] could sound better.
Feist agrees that consumers arent fully aware of whats going on with audio compression: The consumer doesnt understand how or why something is louder than the other, but they do notice when something is softer than the other, and most of the time, that makes people think the softer audio file is not as good a song as the louder one.
The music industry is aware, however, and thus several solutions have recently emerged to combat this problem of rampant audio compression. In September 2013, Nine Inch Nails released two versions of the album Hesitation Marks: a standard loud version and an audiophile-mastered version.
The audiophile mastered version highlights the mixes as they are without compromising the dynamics and low end, and not being concerned about how loud the album would be, Mastering Engineer Tom Baker stated. The goal was to simply allow the mixes to retain the spatial relationship between instruments and the robust, grandiose sound.
Need I say more?
SEPTEMBER 26, 2014
When Will the Loudness War End?
ART & MUSIC TECHNOLOGY
By Kristin Houser, iQ Contributor & Editor of LA Music Blog
When Will the Loudness War End?
How the rise of tablets and mobile devices transform the way music is heard.
Turn that music down! is no longer a phrase reserved for grumpy grandparents and other curmudgeons. It turns out the music being released today really is louder than ever, a phenomenon sparking a cultural debate known as the Loudness War.
An estimated 42 percent of American adults now own tablets, 58 percent own smartphones and roughly half of those owners report that they use their devices to listen to music. With consumers able to access more songs than ever thanks to this widespread use of handheld devices, modern recording mixers and engineers feel pressure to differentiate their files from the multitude of others.
Given the fact that it is easy for people to compare one audio file to another, you always want your product to stand out, said acclaimed record producer Mark J. Feist, who has worked with such pop titans as Beyoncé, Celine Dion and Mary J Blige. All gadgets have speakers nowadays, from cell phones to watches to computers to headphones to Bluetooth speakers that are small and monophonic. It is important that records are competitive, clean and loud on any reference speaker they are played.
"To achieve that loudness, engineers turn to audio compression. By condensing digital music files to fit within predetermined aural ranges making the quiet parts louder and the loud parts quieter sound engineers are able to increase each tracks overall volume. In the process of doing so, however, they risk sacrificing the clarity and nuances of the original file.
Unfortunately, many of todays younger music fans have spent their whole lives listening to compressed music files. Therefore, they dont even know that there is a battle being waged over audio compression or understand exactly what is being debated with the loudness war.
As Snoop Dogg says in The Distortion of Sound, a 2014 documentary on the subject of audio compression, The listener doesnt know, so he doesnt care. He doesnt even know that [the music] could sound better.
Feist agrees that consumers arent fully aware of whats going on with audio compression: The consumer doesnt understand how or why something is louder than the other, but they do notice when something is softer than the other, and most of the time, that makes people think the softer audio file is not as good a song as the louder one.
The music industry is aware, however, and thus several solutions have recently emerged to combat this problem of rampant audio compression. In September 2013, Nine Inch Nails released two versions of the album Hesitation Marks: a standard loud version and an audiophile-mastered version.
The audiophile mastered version highlights the mixes as they are without compromising the dynamics and low end, and not being concerned about how loud the album would be, Mastering Engineer Tom Baker stated. The goal was to simply allow the mixes to retain the spatial relationship between instruments and the robust, grandiose sound.
Need I say more?
Julf
Facts are our friends
That article says it all, thanks Julf, I could not have backed up my statements any better
Sure - just wish it was based on them actually having some understandning of what they are saying
Have you seen that "documentary"? They keep confusing dynamic compression and lossy file formats all through it...
Lol, So why did you post it then if it makes no sense?Sure - just wish it was based on them actually having some understandning of what they are saying
Have you seen that "documentary"? They keep confusing dynamic compression and lossy file formats all through it...
Are you just one of those people who disagrees with everything said, regardless?
I have not watched the documentary, but I dont remember Snoop Dog being best known for being an expert on mastering techniques
Julf
Facts are our friends
Because it shows the thinking (and knowledge level) of those "professionals". Did you actually look at the Feist quote I posted?
No.
I have not watched the documentary, but I dont remember Snoop Dog being best known for being an expert on mastering techniques
Which is probably exactly why they used him as a spokesperson
darrenyeats
pfm Member
Agreed.
davidsrsb
pfm Member
All recorded rock and orchestral music is compressed. Real instruments just have too much dynamic range for domestic playback. The art is just using enough
zarniwoop
hoopy frood
Erm, yes, I know. The article I linked to suggests that if broadcasters adopt loudness normalisation then recordings that have maxed out the compression to make them loud will sound poor in comparison to those that haven't, and they won't sound louder, so there will be no point in compressing just for the sake of loudness.
Julf
Facts are our friends
Which is exactly the point I was making with the references to EBU R128. The traditional justification for compression is gone, now it is a factor of a) what the buying public wants, and b) what the artist/producer/mastering engineer wants.
Ted-M
pfm Member
EBU R128 only applies to TV broadcast AFAIK - i.e. music/sound with picture, it isn't a concern when mastering for music only - CD / iTunes etc. 'Mastered for iTunes' has introduced some guidelines with regards to clipping, and also asks for hi-res masters if they are available (i.e. upload your best master, but don't 'upsample' it for the sake of it) but as far as I know there is no 'loudness' reference required.
I think the days of doing ultra brickwalled masters are behind us anyway tbh
I think the days of doing ultra brickwalled masters are behind us anyway tbh
merlin
Avatar changed - Town names deemed offensive.
The justification is that the buying public like loud tracks in a playlist and don't like quiet. It's what a lot of artists want believe it or not.
Julf
Facts are our friends
It is only mandated on broadcast (not just TV, but radio too), so it takes care of the original justification (sounding louder on radio). It can also be applied to recordings, and it is the current standard for loudness metering, but nobody is forcing producers to stick to recommended levels.
Let's hope you are right.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
But it is very recent, isn't it? The title page is dated 2014, and the body text seems to suggest it was first mooted in 2010. Cultural change doesn't happen overnight, so I think the argument that EBU R128 makes it all better, so we no longer have a problem, is a little weak and simplistic.
Julf
Facts are our friends
It is very recent. We still have a problem, but the traditional reason is gone. So either things get better, or they don't
I remember reading an interview with Owen Morris who produced and mastered Oasis's What's the Story Morning Glory. The brickwalling was intentional, sound wise. The interview was about why the remastered version of the album, which just came out an which he oversaw was just as compressed as the original. I recall the response was that that was the sound they were going for. The post about it (with an email exchange) is on Steve Hoffman, but I'm having trouble finding the link. There may be something on Morris's on site about it. Anyway, I did find this: http://www.oasis-recordinginfo.co.uk/?page_id=6
Julf
Facts are our friends
To quote from the interview: " At NO STAGE did any other mastering engineer add compression or do ANYTHING other than copy ONE to ONE MY digital master".
So "artistic choice". I guess we are all disappointed it wasn't greedy capitalist record label bosses that forced the decisions...