advertisement


Looking for an end game preamp. for ATC Active

karlsushi said:
Preamps are funny things really. If you don't need the volume control or extra inputs, then theoretically they serve no useful purpose at all. Thing is, there are loads of people that prefer one in the chain. I suspect oftentimes, this is down to better impedance matching rather than anything else (giving the sense of more 'body' and dynamics to music), but I suppose gain is a factor too, depending on the amp you're using.
Click to expand...
Perhaps that's true. You might argue that all pres are detrimental with some being much more detrimental than others. I don't buy that myself sometimes the difference is so profound but I don't have much experience either, tending to stick with things I like for a long time.
 
Fourlegs said:
Cool, that is good feed back on your experiences. I will keep an eye on your search and who knows it might end up with me trying what you decide to do!!
Click to expand...
Last night I did go back and try DAVE direct into my ATC’s to sanity check for myself more than anything.

Resolution / midrange did seem “brighter” but not so sure it had more detail.

But it was just too upfront, lacked bass punch and depth, and all round not as pleasant to listen as a preamp. in the chain.

I pretty much concur with this long review.

soundnews.net

Chord Electronics Ultima 5 Power & Ultima 3 Pre In-Depth Review – Hit Me Baby One More Time - Soundnews

I have arrived at the end of the road with personal audio, building a marvelous sounding head-fi battle station, that compels me to discover new experiences on a daily basis. Audiophilia Nervosa is long behind me and finally, I can rest carried away by the sound waves. That setup performs so...
soundnews.net soundnews.net
 
I’ve tried loads of preamps with ATC actives, as well as direct connection from DACs (including the DAVE). You won’t go far wrong with the latter assuming you only have a digital front end. A preamp can quite easily degrade the sound, but some did seem to be more resolving than a direct connection to the DAC, and bring better dynamics into the mix. Way more practical too given the option to accomodate an anolgue source.

Of the preamps I did try, the ones that stand out are the SCA2, the Wired4Sound STP-SE stage 2, the Benchmark LA4, and the Music First Baby Ref 2. The MFA being my favourite.

I had some success with valves too, stand outs being an SJS Arcadia and a Graaf GM13.5b.
 
Furyous said:
I’ve tried loads of preamps with ATC actives, as well as direct connection from DACs (including the DAVE). You won’t go far wrong with the latter assuming you only have a digital front end. A preamp can quite easily degrade the sound, but some did seem to be more resolving than a direct connection to the DAC, and bring better dynamics into the mix.

Of the preamps I did try, the ones that stand out are the SCA2, the Wired4Sound STP-SE stage 2, the Benchmark LA4, and the Music First Baby Ref 2. The MFA being my favourite.
Click to expand...
Yes, I had a MFA Baby Ref 2 from when I had a fixed output DAC (ie not the Dave). Of all the preamps I tried the Baby Ref 2 was the best but even so it did not make the Dave to ATC actives sound any better and merely was the least worst in terms of degraded sound quality (in fact it hardly, if at all, degraded the sound compared to Dave direct).
 
When I auditioned my current Mola Mola Makua DAC/Preamp it was with the ATC 100 actives. It sounded great and has the advantage of putting the Tambaqui through an analogue, rather than digital volume control (which the standalone Tambaqui has - and the DAVE I think).

More recently I have been auditioning turntables (I know you are a digital guy, but bear with me). The store had a fully loaded Makua (with phono and DAC) and played a Kuzma Stabi R with 9 inch 4 point through that into the ATC 150 actives. Again sounded great.

I also found that in my own system running through the Makua as a line stage only (with my old DAC) sounded much better than my Luxman 590AX (as it should for the price).

So I can confirm the Mola Mola Makua works very well with ATC actives and also sounds great. If you have the chance to audition it would be worthwhile. Given you already have your DAVE you will miss out on the price advantage of combining with the onboard Tambaqui DAC - but it is a great preamp regardless.
 
Nero said:
K J Westone sell them.

The 725 should be reasonable at that price.
Click to expand...
One of my customers has one plus the matching power amplifier. It has had to go back to Switzerland at least twice in the last 6 years for repairs. One trip cost about £5000 to get it fixed. Its a very complicated beast, same for the power amp too.

A proper well designed pre-amplifier should enhance your listening experience. Sometimes less is not more, because a good preamplifier is an important link in the audio chain. A good valve/tube preamplifier will give even better results.

What is not said is that the power supplies and the output stage in these DAC's with a pre out are not that good which is just one of the reasons why a good preamp will give superior results.
 
G T Audio said:
A proper well designed pre-amplifier should enhance your listening experience.
Click to expand...
How does it do that? How can a preamp enhance what comes out of a DAC? All it can do is attenuate the level. Why can’t a DAC have a level control every bit as good?
 
The OP has a lovely problem. The ATC speakers will be very faithful to what’s in front of them, all a pre-amp is doing in this case is acting as some kind of tone control.

I think I’d try some other DACs.
 
AndyU said:
How does it do that? How can a preamp enhance what comes out of a DAC? All it can do is attenuate the level. Why can’t a DAC have a level control every bit as good?
Click to expand...
Because the DAC does not have the output drive happy to drive into a high impedance pre input but compromised driving a power amp via a pot ?
 
Woodface said:
The OP has a lovely problem. The ATC speakers will be very faithful to what’s in front of them, all a pre-amp is doing in this case is acting as some kind of tone control.

I think I’d try some other DACs.
Click to expand...
Yes, I think I’d be wanting to try the Mola Mola & a Weiss DAC 501 mk2.
 
I would have thought the best scenario if going the pre amp route is to use the ATC CA2 which is designed for the speakers.
That should take care of impedance matching etc.
 
seadog7 said:
I tried DAVE direct for a long time, I thought was good / very good.

But something seemed missing, I also got the ATC SCM100ASLT at the same time.

I end up thinking, “what’s all the fuss about these active speakers” it wasn’t that dynamic or detailed l, it just seemed good - but very average for the money invested.

Then I put a loan Chord Ultima Pre. 3 in the chain and I was gobsmacked at the improvement.

The dynamic range got scary good, resolution improved, the bass seemed to drop another octave and hit harder, and the soundstage really opened up a lot more.

I’m definitely in a preamp. is better than DAC direct camp now.
Click to expand...

I was about to reply to persuade you of the virtues of preamps but I can see I don't need to.

Volume control in a DAC is almost always a form of digital compression. A pre-amp 'scales' volume in analogue domain and is almost always preferable to digital 'scaling'.

In your circumstance I would try a Townshend Allegri+. There is one in the forums here. That is transparency personified.
 
shug4476 said:
I was about to reply to persuade you of the virtues of preamps but I can see I don't need to.

Volume control in a DAC is almost always a form of digital compression. A pre-amp 'scales' volume in analogue domain and is almost always preferable to digital 'scaling'.

In your circumstance I would try a Townshend Allegri+. There is one in the forums here. That is transparency personified.
Click to expand...
Except that I compared the Dave direct to a MFA Baby Ref V2 which is perhaps one of the most transparent preamps it is possible to get. The Dave volume control’s sound quality was at least the equal of the Baby Ref V2.
 
I just sold my Allegri+ as there was very little difference between that and DAC direct (vol control in the computer), same with the goldpoint attenuator.

However, the (active) pre stage in my Sugden does make a difference similar to as described in this thread --- just more body and punch. If it's adding distortion, it's good distortion ;-)
 
Fourlegs said:
Except that I compared the Dave direct to a MFA Baby Ref V2 which is perhaps one of the most transparent preamps it is possible to get. The Dave volume control’s sound quality was at least the equal of the Baby Ref V2.
Click to expand...
MFA products are very good but they are not strictly a preamp. They are a passive device and more importantly they are a TVC. (Transformer Volume Control), they are basically a transformer that sits between your DAC and your power amplifier. These are also critical on what is connected to them both on the input and the output to work correctly. Same for the Allegri+ too, as that is also a TVC.

A proper preamp will have an active stage or two with a level of gain and will offer a low impedance output, or at least it should do, so it is not dependent on the output impedance of the DAC, or the input impedance of the power amplifier to work properly. Valve/Tube preamps will sound very different to solid-state preamplifiers. Done properly a good valve design will give superior results and will sound more natural and will be a very good match between the digital sources (DAC) and the analogue sections, as in the power amplifier and speakers.
 
AndyU said:
How does it do that? How can a preamp enhance what comes out of a DAC? All it can do is attenuate the level. Why can’t a DAC have a level control every bit as good?
Click to expand...
OK I have explained this before, but I will explain it again:

1. The DAC is an incredibly noisy device and produces a lot of digital noise which pollutes the power supplies within the DAC
2. The DAC will in most cases use the same power supply for the processing D to A data as powering the output buffer in the DAC, assuming it has one. It should do if it is a good design.
3. The output buffer stage in the DAC has zero gain, as most modern DACs output 2 volts straight out of the D2A chip(s). These output buffers are feedback devices, which is not good for great audio sound. Yes, you get a low impedance output but the audio performance is heavily compromised, as in compressed soundstage width and depth.
4. There should be seperate analogue power supplies, one for the DAC processing and one for the analogue output buffer. This is rarely done due to the cost involved.
5. A good preamplifier will provide superior dynamic range, better deeper bass and a wider and deeper soundstage.
6. Probably one of the biggest draw backs of a DAC/preamp and using it as a preamplifier is its digital volume control. This has been done to death on here so I am not going to bother to cover it.

A good analogue preamplifier will have a separate power supply which will not be polluted with digital noise.
A good analogue preamplifier should have gain matching on the input and on the output, so gain should not be an issue.
Assuming the preamplifier has a very good power supply this will feed the one or two stages perfectly, allowing these stages to work optimally in the range they were design for, allowing the very best audio performance to prevail. You get better deeper bass, lots of good detail and a significantly better soundstage, both in width and depth, as well as a very realistic sound which sounds more like the real thing.
I could go on but I will leave it there. I am sure it will give those an opportunity to experiment and draw their own conclusions.

Is less more, well that depends on how it is done. I have never found the sound from a DAC/Pre driving a power amplifier to give the best and most natural results. Anyway people can try it and see which they prefer the sound of.

Over the years I have told quite a few clients to set their DAC's output to the "fixed" level setting, effectively taking the digital volume control out of the circuit, then use a good analogue preamplifier for the gain stage/output buffering. I normally get a call weeks later saying I can't believe adding an extra box can make such a positive improvement to my audio system.
 
I use a minidsp SHD to control my 100s and a sub . It handles multiple inputs , is a roon end point , has dirac ,DAC,and DSP/crossover. It’s thin enough to slide in at the bottom of the telly and I even have a valve phono stage running through it
 
G T Audio said:
OK I have explained this before, but I will explain it again:

1. The DAC is an incredibly noisy device and produces a lot of digital noise which pollutes the power supplies within the DAC
2. The DAC will in most cases use the same power supply for the processing D to A data as powering the output buffer in the DAC, assuming it has one. It should do if it is a good design.
3. The output buffer stage in the DAC has zero gain, as most modern DACs output 2 volts straight out of the D2A chip(s). These output buffers are feedback devices, which is not good for great audio sound. Yes, you get a low impedance output but the audio performance is heavily compromised, as in compressed soundstage width and depth.
4. There should be seperate analogue power supplies, one for the DAC processing and one for the analogue output buffer. This is rarely done due to the cost involved.
5. A good preamplifier will provide superior dynamic range, better deeper bass and a wider and deeper soundstage.
6. Probably one of the biggest draw backs of a DAC/preamp and using it as a preamplifier is its digital volume control. This has been done to death on here so I am not going to bother to cover it.

A good analogue preamplifier will have a separate power supply which will not be polluted with digital noise.
A good analogue preamplifier should have gain matching on the input and on the output, so gain should not be an issue.
Assuming the preamplifier has a very good power supply this will feed the one or two stages perfectly, allowing these stages to work optimally in the range they were design for, allowing the very best audio performance to prevail. You get better deeper bass, lots of good detail and a significantly better soundstage, both in width and depth, as well as a very realistic sound which sounds more like the real thing.
I could go on but I will leave it there. I am sure it will give those an opportunity to experiment and draw their own conclusions.

Is less more, well that depends on how it is done. I have never found the sound from a DAC/Pre driving a power amplifier to give the best and most natural results. Anyway people can try it and see which they prefer the sound of.

Over the years I have told quite a few clients to set their DAC's output to the "fixed" level setting, effectively taking the digital volume control out of the circuit, then use a good analogue preamplifier for the gain stage/output buffering. I normally get a call weeks later saying I can't believe adding an extra box can make such a positive improvement to my audio system.
Click to expand...

Having tried many permutations of DAC and preamp configurations and models my experience is running the DAC through a quality valve pre always delivers better results. Taste obviously comes into this but I wouldn’t be without a good valve pre now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top