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Linn vs the rest of the world.

You've just made me feel a lot better! It was to a good friend so in a way I didn't mind, it was just when I saw how much they wanted for it!

Andy
I’m just chiming in to make you feel worse again, I’ve heard the pair that Richard March has in his shop (RPM Analogue) a couple of times, he’s asking £2100… and he’s right to, they’re fabulous, worth every penny… they are very tidy though.
 
My understanding is that in the 70's and 80's Thorens tended to target the larger Hi-Fi Superstore outlets though some smaller dealers did stock them. This shows up in advertisements from dealers in the magazines so it does not surprise me if they were rarely demoed against the LP12.

Some of the components used in the AR XA (1960) were patented. I have not read the patent but it apparently addressed the suspension. The Thorens TD150 was introduced in 1965 and I have read but not been able to confirm that it was under license to AR. The T Bar sub chassis in the TD150 is reversed compared to the AR XA and with different platter dimensions and an arm board so was a very different deck to the XA.

The prototype turntable developed by Ivor Tiefenbrun in 1969/70 was based on the TD150. Ivor had once owned and then sold a TD150 and couldn't get on with the deck that replaced it so decided to develop his own version using parts machined in his Fathers factory. The Ariston RD11 was based on this prototype after Hamish Robertson got involved in 1970.

In my TT collection I have a couple of XA's along with a TD150 mk2, an early twin button Castle built RD11 as well as a couple of LP12s so am familiar with them all and over the last few years have been researching the history.

It is worth mentioning that despite the OPs desire to paint Linn as the bad guys that during the 70's and early 80's they were one of the companies that did not try to place restrictions on magazine reviews and I applaud them for that. See this article from Martin Colloms from July 85.

https://postimg.cc/jC4kwY6w
 
My story is that I have owned x5 LP12's! I actually thought it was 4 until I wrote this little story. My first proper turntable after a cheapo Garrard something was a Goldring Lenco 75? that a friend gave to me after I refused any payment for work I did for him. I was already in the separates world but that really got me going and after a short time I decided to get a beautiful Michelle Engineering Reference but the dust had to be experienced and then next came what I had been led to believe was the best turntable, my first Lp12, secondhand from a shop that no longer exists in Swindon. I really can't remember the arm and cartridge its all too long ago but at some point a friend brought his new Garrard PL25 over and of course we did an A/B and his Garrard walked all over my LP12 so that went and I bought my first Rega3. I used this for a couple of years with various bits of kit but eventually decided that all this 'different' kit just didn't gel so I sold the lot and bought my first Linn/Naim system. LP12, Ittok and Asak, Kans, Naim 32.5, High Cap and 250 amp. I lived with this for a few years and then a friend bought a Rosewood LP12 and I just had to have one so along came LP12 number 3. This was a fantastic looking deck but sadly it warped so it just had to go. My b in l was getting rid of his LP12 so I bought that off him. I then decided to not have a record player so sold that but after about a year decided to renew things and bought several turntables, including a couple of Regas but nothing seemed to reproduce what I had been used to in the past so I went and saw Peter at Cymbiosis and bought one from him. Since then I have had a new plinth fitted, arm lead and cartridge and recently a Karousel and seperate power supply. To me the LP12 is the most musical turntable and I will never change it. Nothing else seems to be so musically satisfying as a Linn especially when its set up properly and even if it's not the best its still damn good, I probably couldn't afford the best anyway.
 
My understanding is that in the 70's and 80's Thorens tended to target the larger Hi-Fi Superstore outlets though some smaller dealers did stock them. This shows up in advertisements from dealers in the magazines so it does not surprise me if they were rarely demoed against the LP12.

Some of the components used in the AR XA (1960) were patented. I have not read the patent but it apparently addressed the suspension. The Thorens TD150 was introduced in 1965 and I have read but not been able to confirm that it was under license to AR. The T Bar sub chassis in the TD150 is reversed compared to the AR XA and with different platter dimensions and an arm board so was a very different deck to the XA.

The prototype turntable developed by Ivor Tiefenbrun in 1969/70 was based on the TD150. Ivor had once owned and then sold a TD150 and couldn't get on with the deck that replaced it so decided to develop his own version using parts machined in his Fathers factory. The Ariston RD11 was based on this prototype after Hamish Robertson got involved in 1970.

In my TT collection I have a couple of XA's along with a TD150 mk2, an early twin button Castle built RD11 as well as a couple of LP12s so am familiar with them all and over the last few years have been researching the history.

It is worth mentioning that despite the OPs desire to paint Linn as the bad guys that during the 70's and early 80's they were one of the companies that did not try to place restrictions on magazine reviews and I applaud them for that. See this article from Martin Colloms from July 85.

https://postimg.cc/jC4kwY6w
Now this is a much more credible post. No one of the decks are a direct copy of the other, they are all an development of the same ideology… The LP12 and RD11 were co developed, although as far as I can see, Linn made a few improvements to the fit and finish quite early on, with a much nicer plinth and generally better finish all round. I suspect this helped cement it’s place as a luxury product for almost fifty years and going… of course the continuous improvements have kept it alive and well, but if it came in the plinth of an RD11, nobody would want one, because they look like they’ve been knocked together from cheap off cuts.
 
Your car analogy is weak as the similarities between the early LP12 and the XA -and close to identical to the Ariston RD11 which also took from the XA as did the TD150- are too great to ignore, you can gift wrap it in your mind any way that makes you feel comfortable but Ivor liberated that basic design of the XA and ran with it backed with brilliant marketing and strong arming.

I think this is doing Linn/Castle a great disservice as, although the LP12 and AR are very similar in configuration, the Linn is much better engineered. Which is why it sounds better. And critically, Linn continued to improve the LP12 throughout it's history while the AR turntable only ever suffered cost cutting which saw it end up competing with mid market decks.

Yes, the marketing was good and hype was strong but ultimately, the reason the LP12 was and is a hugely successful turntable as that Linn built the damn thing properly.
 
I don’t really understand why people get so heated over a turntable. I suppose you can always ‘get better’ by spending more money but who really cares?

I really dislike the big, bling ‘super decks’ but if someone wants to spend their money on one then it’s a matter for them.
 
Many years ago I heard that Linn would not allow their turntables to be sold in shops that sold other makes of turntables.

This was the philosophy behind Tiefenbruns marketing.

Linn basically stonewalled the competition from ever getting a foothold in the high-end turntable market.

This is fact and I'm not going to bother explaining it here, that's what Googles for but I just wondered if anyone remembers going into hi-fi shops and only being able to listen to LP12s??
The fact is he’s turntable where ok yet many produced better and well tempered where the best around with sound engineering Sold my LP12 Aro lingo after listening to a well tempered as I felt it was average at best lived with a Rega for a decade or two now own a wtt

And I was able to set mine up properly despite that I found the bearing wore out within 6 months and the linn arms where average after a year the aro was midrange forward and although they where better than CD I was not bothers seeing it go
 
The similarity is that they both have three point suspension, that’s all, no parts are interchangeable at all, now the Ariston was close to identical to the LP12, but not the AR, or Thorens… but go on, get all angry and personal about it, that’ll make you look really smart.

All the decks you list above took from that XA design, Linn made the most profit from it. ...So then I can include by your own logic that the current Linn Klimax spec LP12 has nothing in common with the original LP12, like comparing a Roman chariot with a Tesla, right? -and 99 other variations/ways to build up an LP12 over all the years- because 90% of the parts are not interchangeable piece for piece with the parts they were replaced with, except for the outer platter? every other part has been changed on the LP12 at least once. This is Linns way to get their costumers to purchase a completely new deck with their "upgrade path" leaving the customer wondering how many more Bandaids will it take until they get it right. So, in fact -using your logic- the Linn decks are more removed from EACH OTHER than the original spec LP12 was removed from the XA.
 
The well tempered turntables are really great performers and have the added feature of being one of the few carnivorous vinyl spinners, the cuckoo pint of record players if you will.
 
I think this is doing Linn/Castle a great disservice as, although the LP12 and AR are very similar in configuration, the Linn is much better engineered. Which is why it sounds better. And critically, Linn continued to improve the LP12 throughout it's history while the AR turntable only ever suffered cost cutting which saw it end up competing with mid market decks.

Yes, the marketing was good and hype was strong but ultimately, the reason the LP12 was and is a hugely successful turntable as that Linn built the damn thing properly.

Yes, I'll agree with what your saying. But this still doesn't take away that Linn took the fundamental design philosophy of the XA and then yes, they made it better with a little redesign, better materials, better machining, tighter tolerances etc, but the end user paid for these improvements in the higher retail price, the LP12 was built to be a premium deck. The AR XA was built to be a $60- deck at the time complete minus cartridge.
 
.. because 90% of the parts are not interchangeable piece for piece with the parts they were replaced with..

I don't really understand what you are saying? In terms of volume of upgrade options and backwards compatibility there isn't another turntable in the world that comes close to the LP12.

...the Linn decks are more removed from EACH OTHER than the original spec LP12 was removed from the XA/Ariston.

Again, I don't get you. The AR and Ariston RD11 are not the same the thing. The RD11 and the first LP12 more or less are. While the components of the LP12 have been upgraded over the years, the configuration and major structure of the deck is exactly the same as it was in 1973. Most current parts will fit on an early LP12.

The AR deck was quite different. The platter was much lighter, springs much softer, motor smaller and although both the AR and Linn use three springs the arrangement of those springs is different. The Linn and AR share no common parts and there is no cross compatibility. Saying that its like two completely different cars which share the four-wheel, front engine, rear wheel drive configuration is not too far off the mark.

In my opinion, the similarity of these decks has been overstated over the years. Yes, they are both suspended decks which use three three springs but Linn/Castle did a better job of both the engineering principals and product development which is why the deck is still made and still relevant today. No one is rushing out to revive the AR design as quite frankly, it's just not as good and never could be.
 
All the decks you list above took from that XA design, Linn made the most profit from it. ...So then I can include by your own logic that the current Linn Klimax spec LP12 has nothing in common with the original LP12, like comparing a Roman chariot with a Tesla, right? -and 99 other variations/ways to build up an LP12 over all the years- because 90% of the parts are not interchangeable piece for piece with the parts they were replaced with, except for the outer platter? every other part has been changed on the LP12 at least once. This is Linns way to get their costumers to purchase a completely new deck with their "upgrade path" leaving the customer wondering how many more Bandaids will it take until they get it right. So, in fact -using your logic- the Linn decks are more removed from EACH OTHER than the original spec LP12 was removed from the XA.
Well no, because the parts mostly ARE interchangeable between any LP12, the only “DO NOT MIX” being a Valhalla PSU with a Karousel bearing because of insufficient clearance. No part of any LP12 is interchangeable with an AR XA, because it’s a different deck. You’re clutching at straws here to win a pointless argument. My point/question remains, there are many three point suspended decks out there, many of which came between the AR XA and the LP12, so what makes the Linn a “copy” of the AR and the others not, other than people wanting to have a pop at Linn of course? And as for banding about phrases like “blind Linn LP12 fanboy”, really, it’s the anti Linn brigade that are more obsessive. it really is bizarre, what is the agenda?
 
Yes, I'll agree with what your saying. But this still doesn't take away that Linn took the fundamental design philosophy of the XA and then yes, they made it better with a little redesign, better materials, better machining, tighter tolerances etc, but the end user paid for these improvements in the higher retail price, the LP12 was built to be a premium deck. The AR XA was built to be a $60- deck at the time complete minus cartridge.
Right, my original point, is that Linn are no more guilty of this than the likes of Thorens, in fact the Thorens was a lot closer to the AR deck. In fact Linn did the suspension differently, it’s tuned to damp acoustic vibrations from the speakers rather than footfall and the like, the Linn is actually terrible with footfall because the suspension reacts to it and wobbles all over the plate, but it does do a great job of damping out surface born vibration from speakers. And here’s another thing, Linn, who are accused of trying to lock retailers and customers into their platform, have the most open platform of any turntable manufacturer, you can fit practically any arm, and they don’t seem too bothered about the huge variety of third party modification either.
 
No one of the decks are a direct copy of the other, they are all an development of the same ideology…

I’d argue the vast majority of progress is evolution of design, and after time logical and cost effective methods emerge and end up being an established design concept. I have no issue with any of the three-point belt-drive subchassis decks, and there are many others that can be added to the list (e.g. Systemdeck, Logic, Pink Triangle, Gyrodeck etc) each bringing some other development. They arguably all stem from the Ed Villchur design as I guess all EL84 push-pull valve amps can likely be traced back to an initial design back in the 1950s when the EL84 was first released (Mullard 5-10 I guess). That doesn’t make say a Leben CS300 a “rip-off” at all IMO, it is just a nice example of where that design concept has ended up today best part of 70 years later.

I don’t get the LP12 hate at all. Yes, I can clearly see the linage from both the AR and the TD-150, but there is also real development and progress.
 
Well no, because the parts mostly ARE interchangeable between any LP12, the only “DO NOT MIX” being a Valhalla PSU with a Karousel bearing because of insufficient clearance. No part of any LP12 is interchangeable with an AR XA, because it’s a different deck. You’re clutching at straws here to win a pointless argument. My point/question remains, there are many three point suspended decks out there, many of which came between the AR XA and the LP12, so what makes the Linn a “copy” of the AR and the others not, other than people wanting to have a pop at Linn of course? And as for banding about phrases like “blind Linn LP12 fanboy”, really, it’s the anti Linn brigade that are more obsessive. it really is bizarre, what is the agenda?

I'm not "anti-Linn" and have no agenda. I own an LP12 as well as many other pieces of their equipment Kairns, Klouts, Keltiks, Isobariks, a Tuner a Majik, and a few pairs of Sekrits too as well as gear from many other company's including Naim & Rega. I'm not a Fan Boy because I chose to rate and evaluate each piece of gear on it's own merits regardless of which company makes it, I don't blindly accept any one company's gear as superior to another. If you can not see the similarities between the early LP12 and the XA -who did it first- from a basic engineering standpoint I can't help you, did Linn make the design better, yes.. And read my words carefully, "90% of the parts are not interchangeable piece for piece with the parts they were replaced with".
 
I'm not "anti-Linn" and have no agenda. I own an LP12 as well as many other pieces of their equipment Kairns, Klouts, Keltiks, Isobariks, a Tuner a Majik, and a few pairs of Sekrits too as well as gear from many other company's including Naim & Rega. I'm not a Fan Boy because I chose to rate and evaluate each piece of gear on it's own merits regardless of which company makes it, I don't blindly accept any one company's gear as superior to another. If you can not see the similarities between the early LP12 and the XA -who did it first- from a basic engineering standpoint I can't help you, did Linn make the design better, yes.. And read my words carefully, "90% of the parts are not interchangeable piece for piece with the parts they were replaced with".
Well, I’m not a fanboy either and I definitely don’t “blindly accept one company’s gear as superior to another, nowhere have I said or implied anything of the sort ever, that’s just your blind assumption. like you I own a lot of Linn gear, but I own other stuff too, and I’m quick to criticise Linn when I don’t agree with a policy, or I think a product is just poor, and I have done, quite openly.

My original point, the car analogy still stands, there has to be a first, and then everything that follows is a development or interpretation of that idea… and as with the car analogy, what follows is often an improvement.

PS, I need to ask you to explain what you mean by “90% of the parts are not interchangeable piece for piece with the parts they were replaced with”. I have a mint 1980’s deck (because I love the plinth), but it has a Kore sub chassis, Karousel bearing, and a Lingo 2 power supply. I also have the original black liner bearing and sub chassis, a Cirkus sub chassis and bearing and a Valhalla PSU… now I could have fitted the Karousel in any of the three sub chassis I have, and all three bearings fit the Kore sub chassis. The only bits I have that cannot be used in combination are the Karousel bearing and Valhalla PSU as mentioned earlier. It might not make any real sense to combine some parts, but largely, you can mix and match as you choose… you could buy a selection of bits from various eras and stick them all together, because as Mr Pig pointed out above, “the configuration and major structure of the deck is exactly as it was in 1973”.
 
I’d argue the vast majority of progress is evolution of design, and after time logical and cost effective methods emerge and end up being an established design concept. I have no issue with any of the three-point belt-drive subchassis decks, and there are many others that can be added to the list (e.g. Systemdeck, Logic, Pink Triangle, Gyrodeck etc) each bringing some other development. They arguably all stem from the Ed Villchur design as I guess all EL84 push-pull valve amps can likely be traced back to an initial design back in the 1950s when the EL84 was first released (Mullard 5-10 I guess). That doesn’t make say a Leben CS300 a “rip-off” at all IMO, it is just a nice example of where that design concept has ended up today best part of 70 years later.

I don’t get the LP12 hate at all. Yes, I can clearly see the linage from both the AR and the TD-150, but there is also real development and progress.
Precisely!
 


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