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Linn K5 & K9 confusion

Discussion in 'classic' started by lilolee, Oct 18, 2020.

  1. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    Leaving the boron cantilever question aside for the moment, aside from the price difference (i.e. circa £249.97 for a JICO SAS/B vs. £134.99 for a tip profile equivalent AT-VM95ML* for the K5) I'd definitely be wanting my phono input loading capacitance down to circa 100pF (from Naim's ill conceived 470pF) for the K5 generator. The Shelter's OEM generator (which dates back to the 1970s) is much more tolerant here.

    * ML = Microline, audio-technica's 'MicroRidge'. This and SAS are Namiki MicroRidge, all made in the same factory in Japan. The table above was originally published by Namiki and said 'MicroRidge stylus' in the column heading where it currently says 'S.A.S. stylus'. Of course, there are minor distinguishing dimensional differences vis-a-vie r/R, however these are much of a muchness.
  2. Durmbo

    Durmbo not French

    I have a Jico SAS on boron on a Garrott cartridge, the generator of which is afaict identical to the Shelters (& the Sumiko Pearl & the old A&Rs). It sticks to the groove like nothing else & has a wonderfully smooth, effortless sound. I don’t use it though as it likes to see more capacitance than the 100pF I can only offer it, thus sounding dull. I hope to remedy it one day.
  3. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    @Craig B Interesting info there thanks; onward from this, I've delved into the 95ML stylus idea onto my K5 body. Leading me to think if only £15 between this & a new 95ML cart (& a better stylus to body fit) this = more sense.

    So trawling the 95ML reviews, I seem to recall having an AT in the past on this TT which was harsh/ bright/ forced.. big no-no. I look in my ebay sells to remind me what it was. AT440mlb. Micro linear! I bloomin had one! Strewth.

    So I'm going round in circles here a bit. But appreciate the information- very helpful in choosing what to do. If Durmbo thinks the boron SAS jiico ML a bit 'smooth jazz' it might not be so wise to have a big £250 blind punt then.

    So I'm considering the 95ML (as it seems a bit less harsh/ bright than the 440mlb). And the nagoaka mp-110. Both earn high praise. Or another 201 stylus of course, £90, but the higher frequencies are quite 'locked in' I find.

    "Budget" cartridges.. honestly I mean this aint no bargain bucket stuff to me!! £150 for the bit on the end of a TT tonearm.. is a "pretty damn exotic" cartridge in my little world!
  4. daytona600

    daytona600 Registered User

  5. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    Hi daytona, thanks for this. Im struggling a bit without punctuation, but I think you mean Jico are the mfr of the current AT95. Im struggling a bit to understand the next part. (Supplied in large numbers -to- AT?)

    I think you're then suggesting there's another contender, the AT95sa which I should consider?
  6. daytona600

    daytona600 Registered User

    AT95E sold over 5milllion. Jico offered Stylus upgrades HE hyper elliptical & SH shibata
  7. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    If you do decided to go with AT-VM95ML (or an A-T replacement stylus on the K5), just make sure to get those 'N' cards out of the 72 and have a look. You really won't want the original 470pF polystyrene caps in with AT MMs. Your Shelter (and previous DL110) won't care, but an A-T MM will spit at you.
    Durmbo likes this.
  8. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    Right yes, so now I'm in a better position to make a decision, I can think upon this 'poly pf' naim board aspect you've hinted at/ noted this suggestion.

    Are you suggesting this 100pf, because of the perhaps higher output of AT's in general-? I don't know what this cap does you see, so I can't yet fully understand your reasoning to change it. Perfectly easy to do though.

    Or maybe could you explain -why- an AT MM would "spit" with the 470pf cap ? Perhaps this was why my AT 440 mlb did exactly that.. it spat for sure, 30 hrs on & I sold it. The Shelter was a relief in comparison, if a bit safe.

    Thanks, Capt
  9. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    Somewhat related to MM cartridge output level, but more generally a case of a certain amount of input capacitance being necessary to counter the inherent HF rolloff that the coils will bring about due their internal inductance (which will be higher when more coil turns have been employed to bring output level up relative to the competition - even if the perceived competition is just CD).

    More specifically, it is the reaction between external capacitive load (in pF) and coil internal inductance (in mH) at a specific impedance (our usually fixed 47kOhm MM input) that brings about a HF resonant peak that typically more than counters the natural rolloff caused by coil inductance. To complicate matters, too much capacitance not only increases the amplitude of this resonant peak, but also brings this lower in frequency to where it is far more audible. A specific example of this being that an A-T MM (your K5, previous AT440MLb, and all of the current VM95 series) being loaded with circa 595pF (Naim's 470pF plus the 125pF or your 774 tonearm wiring) will have a massive peak below 9kHz, beyond which HF drops off a cliff (and A-T aren't the only ones so affected by such extreme capacitance). Conversely, although Shelter don't indicate such, your 201 is best with more than 300pF total (circa 400pF is likely ideal) else it sound a bit 'dull' (Shelter only state that this model has no HF peak, which is amusing, as with insufficient capacitance the HF simply drops off).
  10. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    Hi Craid B. Unfortunately I can't understand any of this. I do apologise. I can roughly understand a "HF roll off", only. Although if someone told me that Im hearing such a thing, I wouldn't he able to know; so I can only understand a theory/ vague notion of this aspect, by imagining what it might mean. This isn't very good start to understanding your post is it! Resonant peaks.. Ive decades tried to imagine what this might be, what such a thing might sound like, or whether I have ever heard such a thing. But without knowing what it actually is, I have no way of telling if I have ever heard one! (or if it manifests itself in an audible fashion at all, I can only think it might well do).

    You mention my Shelter "might sound a bit dull" with less than 300pf. So I can certainly check what I have in there, it's a modded beast so I can't recall.

    It's probably best I just ask you what value cap to put in here, once I have the replacement stylus. I don't neccessarily need to know the reason for this, although I do like to know reasoning, & try to understand.. but I know this ^ is just out of my galaxy to understand).

    Much appreciated, thank you. Capt
  11. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    Ok thanks daytona. Is this Jico Co known to make sylus' up to or even better than AT? I'm always wary of aftermarket stuff whatever it might be. I've read decent things of the -sound- of Jico's, yes, but what about build/ longevity?
  12. daytona600

    daytona600 Registered User

    but what about build/ longevity?
    Jico started in 1873
  13. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    No I meant build quality, item longevity (of the stylus bonded onto the cantilever etc) not the Co's history.

    Actually my question has more pertinence: just thrown a curveball.. I find the AT is now mfr in f****g china. Argh!!

    No, im not having my cart/ stylus made in PRC. Nor any of my hifi. The one thing I like is knowing my stylus/ cart is made in japan, like my guitar necks too, not damn prc. And talking of longevity (in your perceived way) I bet the factory has been up merely months. No confidence in build quality, whatsoever, of a stylus mfr in china. No.

    I had never thought Id be shopping around trying to avoid mfr in china, for stuff for my TT. Depressing.
  14. daytona600

    daytona600 Registered User

    Ortofon made in denmark , Grado USA , Nagaoka in japan only non PRC
  15. TimF

    TimF pfm Member

    Jubblies and phono cartridges in the same thread. Who would have thunk it? Only on the Fish! :)
  16. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    We had to introduce hooters Tim or we'd have died of boredom.

    I've emailed AT to ask re. china mfr.

    @Craig B lying in the bath, your capacitance/ roll off thing became clearer. It took full brainpower, & the need not to consider barbara's exercise scene in carry on camping.

    So, a situation might be: if the wrong capacitance is there, this either inhibits the top end (shelter, with 100pf).. or excacerbates the HF (AT, with 470pf). So this cap is fundamentally important to 'set' right. Have I got the gist?
    Craig B and TimF like this.
  17. daytona600

    daytona600 Registered User

    Adjust Cap loading on your phono stage Simples
  18. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    Hi daytona, yes I think I understand now. But not so simple if resoldering caps (or is this your 'simple' adjustment?).

    @Craig B just had a look & this poly cap on my 322/4 naim boards, & is the original so that's 470pf I believe.

    So re-reading your post again (seems I didn't quite get the correct idea in the bath then).. does this seem ok with my Shelter 201? Or does the total of ~575pf, including the armwire, need to be more ideally lower at around 300pf?
  19. daytona600

    daytona600 Registered User

    But not so simple if resoldering caps
    Just press a button
  20. The Captain

    The Captain ~~~~~~~~~~

    Press a button- yes I could see it would be simple if I had one of these boxes..

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