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Leak Stereo 20 versus current valve amplifiers?

I've previously had a couple of Leak Stereo 20's and currently have a KEL84 xl. I couldn't really say that one was better than the other as it's several years since I had the Leak but I can say that in my opinion they're not 'miles apart' in terms of overall sound quality i.e. they're both very good and both work brilliantly well with Tannoy Monitor Golds, that's for sure.
I did directly compare my second ST20 (with a diy passive pre) to an Eastern Electric Minimax pre/power combo, and I have to say that I preferred the Eastern Electrics so sold the Leak on (for half of what they sell for now, ugh). I'm crap at describing sonic traits but iirc I felt the Minimax pair had most/all the good qualities of the Leak but just seemed to project more air and shimmer to the high frequencies.

Tell you what though, it's probably easier to lay your hands on a Leak Stereo 20 than it is either a (used) KEL84 or Minimax combo!
 
The other thing to point out here is there is really no such thing as a ‘Leak Stereo 20’ in 2021 as all original ones will have drifted far, far off spec, often to the point if being totally unusable, and rebuilds can be very different in component choices, even folk tampering with the original design spec etc. As such final sound quality and presentation will vary very significantly from example to example. You could argue this is the case with the WD kits too as many constructors make their own decisions in selecting components, positioning and cable routing etc during construction.
 
Perhaps worth mentioning that you don’t have to go “full vintage” to get some high VFM valve amps.
I have occasionally seen an Art Audio Quintet appear in the usually places for a lot less than £1000.
Uses EL34 valves rather than EL84.
I bought one as my first valve amp (plus matching pre amp) from Vinyl Tube Audio in Kentish Town.
Great sound and I believe Art Audio are still going.
Always tempted to buy but have resisted so far.
 
RichardA said:
Perhaps worth mentioning that you don’t have to go “full vintage” to get some high VFM valve amps.
I have occasionally seen an Art Audio Quintet appear in the usually places for a lot less than £1000.
Uses EL34 valves rather than EL84.
I bought one as my first valve amp (plus matching pre amp) from Vinyl Tube Audio in Kentish Town.
Great sound and I believe Art Audio are still going.
Always tempted to buy but have resisted so far.
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The Art Audio Quintet is superb!! I've always been amazed we don't hear more about these...
 
Wow, a lot of food for thought! Sounds like the WAD kits are worth thinking about and are a real potential pre-loved bargain if I could get one of the more modern specs...
 
Tony L said:
To answer that you really need to define your price point. Valve amplifiers are not cheap at all to make regardless of what some bargain-bucket Chinese stuff may imply. Transformers are the heart of a valve amp and are very expensive to build well. They are also to some degree a lost art. The advantage vintage Leaks, Radfords, Quads etc have is they have *very* good transformers by modern standards. They also tend to have the full three taps (4, 8 & 16 Ohm) so can match to a wider range of speakers than many modern Chinese amps.
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Tony, budget is around £1,500, could go higher for something special. As you say, a Leak Stereo 20 is around £700 to £1,000. A sympathetic restoration from the likes of Classique will add a few hundred pounds. There are some interesting vintage items out there, e.g Ideal Audio have a Radford STA 25 III and SC22 combo for £1,900, they also have a pair of Leak TL 12 Plus for £1,250. On the more exotic and tempting in terms of looks end, there is a McIntosh MC 40 on Ebay for £2,100.

For used mainstream contemporary, there is a Primaluna Dialogue Premium on Ebay for £1,700 and a Unison Research Simply 4 in the same ballpark. There are a lot of different Icon Audio models between c. £800 and £2,000. These are relatively easy to audition from dealers, and come with good reviews from the hi-fi media, the issue is finding a way to compare them with similar vintage amps which are not widely available for demo.
 
Tony L said:
The other thing to point out here is there is really no such thing as a ‘Leak Stereo 20’ in 2021 as all original ones will have drifted far, far off spec, often to the point if being totally unusable, and rebuilds can be very different in component choices, even folk tampering with the original design spec etc. As such final sound quality and presentation will vary very significantly from example to example. You could argue this is the case with the WD kits too as many constructors make their own decisions in selecting components, positioning and cable routing etc during construction.
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From the Leaks available on Ebay, this definitely seems to be the case. They all seem to have been "restored" to some degree with what looks like a spectrum from bodger to pro. I suspect it is very difficult to find a consistent voicing for these amps today as they all will have been altered or restored using a range of different parts. At least the McIntosh ad in Ebay has a caveat that the capacitors have been replaced and the amp may not sound like the original.
 
Tell you what though, it's probably easier to lay your hands on a Leak Stereo 20 than it is either a (used) KEL84 or Minimax combo![/QUOTE]

Absolutely! I can see one outcome here being to go ahead with a Leak or equivalent in the meantime and then buy a used KEL, Minimax, Quintet, etc. in the future as they come up and then doing the comparison, selling on whichever fails the head to head test (or more likely keeping both as is my wont!). Can't see a monetary loss either way as the vintage stuff has a clear market price and the more contemporary amps have a quality and rarity value...
 
A Radford STA25 should be doable for a budget of £1500 and is still "the dogs bollocks", to use a technical phrase:D

Yes the Art Audio is very good also as are several others I'm sure.

With vintage amps there is always the originality V max performance dichotomy I guess... I would certainly expect a fully rebuilt with modern top quality components one to sound better (certainly much more reliable as well!) than an original example but as a completely original one will be unusable due to age and wear of components it's a moot point really...

Personally when I rebuild them I go for performance rather than originality. Some others offering this service also do this whilst some go for max originality ie new parts but choosing them for their similarity to the originals rather than max performance.

In my own St20 I've taken it a stage further and there are all sorts of mods to increase sound quality beyond that of any fully stock St20. I take the point made by some though that if uber performance is the main thing then why buy a vintage classic when you could have bought a new one with most of the things I've done to my St20 incorporated as standard.
 
Junaman said:
At least the McIntosh ad in Ebay has a caveat that the capacitors have been replaced and the amp may not sound like the original.
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I can’t find the Mcintosh on eBay, have you got a link? £2100 is potentially a very good price I’d have thought. It is allegedly one of their best.
 
Apologies, realised that I had a typo of MC40 in my original post, as you can see it is a Mcintosh MC 240. Still a very desirable piece of kit and as used by my favourite TV detective Harry Bosch (can be found on Amazon Prime and highly recommended and not just for his vintage system).
 
Shame about the corrosion, I guess it sat unloved in a garage or basement for ages, but nice amp nonetheless.
 
A nice project for someone, but probably too ambitious for me. I am tempted just to buy it and leave it untouched for 10 years, It will undoubtedly double in value. Suspect I would crack though and end up getting it restored just to hear it.
 
topoxforddoc said:
If you want a vintage valve amp at that price point, definitely a Radford - either a STA15 or STA 25 should do nicely depending on your speakers.
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Those model, plus of course the STA100 and the MA monoblocks, can still be considered state of the art in many ways today. They could be tweaked to give a little bit more by adding some modern mods but the basic design was just so spot on. The reading of 0.03% THD I posted earlier was not a typo! Original MkIII I'd just rebuilt (there's a thread somewhere ) and It was at about 20W, rather than full output, and after selecting the valves on a THD analyser... but come on... that's fantastic for a valve amp with an output transformer even today.

And Will's Radford Revival amps are a stone cold bargain!
 
What? 2750 pounds for a real Radford made in England?
Wow! What a bargain indeed!
The perfect amp for my beloved ESL (I currently drive them with my old valve design with GE 6CA7’s).
How about Dynakit amps Jez?
A USA made STA-70 will set you back a mere $ 750!

ST-70-Photo-2021-scaled.jpg
 
The original question was how does vintage kit like Leak, Radford, etc. compare to modern valve amps? The consensus seems to be very well indeed. I was thinking the mid end of modern amps such as Primaluna, Icon and Unison Research which all get glowing reviews in the Hifi press. No-one has really mentioned them, which either means they don’t compare or people haven’t heard them.

When it comes to contemporary, two kits have been mentioned - WAD and Dynakit, plus the Art Audio Quintet. My question is what makes these particular modern amps good compared to others like the Primaluna, etc? Is it purely on a cost/value ratio because labour and dealer markup is removed in the case of the kits, or are these particular companies like Art Audio using better parts, e.g. transformers have been mentioned as being key and an area where classic seems to outperform modern?
 
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