Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

[Brian]

^^^ To be honest, I'm just glad that Tony is giving the AJ doc a fair hearing. Many will simply bury their head in the sand as the cognitive dissonance is simply too great. Any recognition that there is another side to what happened to the Labour Party in the last few years is welcome.

Anyway, an interesting and relevant story from Novara Media's Aaron Bastani, about the time he was offered a job by the IPPR (soft-left economic think-tank) :

https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1574396263445008385

Or, more succinctly:

In terms of pfm, I think a lot of people accept the reality of the smear campaign against Corbyn, I think only a minority don't, so you and the other few hard left aren't alone. I mean, one of the regulars here has attacked me for an argument with gassor when I was saying exactly that about lies and smears in response to his relentless nonsense about anti-semitism etc. Most knew it was tripe.

 

[Tony L]

I'm glad you're taking this on board but I can't help pointing out that it's nothing that some of here haven't been telling you about for years.

Yes, and I’d already reversed very publicly out from my initial position on Momentum. I got that wrong and had already admitted it/apologised. I make a lot of mistakes, but one thing you will never find me doing is digging into a hole due to not admitting it once I’ve figured it out. This is actually a key reason why I’m so baffled by tribal politics. In any situation I deal with (IT, business, music or whatever) if you screw up you admit it and reverse out as fast as possible with minimal damage. I will never understand things like Brexit where a clearly wrong and hugely damaging hole is dug endlessly deeper. The people who own the hole continually denying reality.

I still haven’t altered my opinion on Corbyn, but that was primarily based on watching his actions live at PMQs, in debates, seeing him immediately try to trigger A50 etc. He just wasn’t very bright IMHO, and certainly wasn’t a leader in waiting at a time of national crisis.

The extent to which the anti-Semitism thing was engineered by Labour’s right appears shocking, but I’m still not convinced there was no issue. It is also an area I’m not sure how impartial a Qatari news channel would be. I’m not taking this second episode without a pinch of salt given its one-sided nature, but the inner workings of the party do look pretty much as Alexi Sale describes above. The thing that really stood out for me was Starmer and the court case towards the end. That was all new to me and his decision really speaks volumes. See my view on digging holes.

Certainly an interesting documentary and only active reinforcement that Labour isn’t for me.

 

[Brian]

I lost count of the times Corbyn was said incapable of running the country if he can't even sort out anti-semitism in his own party. Despite the general consensus, I can actually count without using my fingers...

Basically, 2010 and 2017 were great opportunities spurned. 2024/25 is the next and probably last chance otherwise we are screwed for a century. People have to make removing the tories their first priority.

 

[ks.234]

^^^ To be honest, I'm just glad that Tony is giving the AJ doc a fair hearing. Many will simply bury their head in the sand as the cognitive dissonance is simply too great. Any recognition that there is another side to what happened to the Labour Party in the last few years is welcome.

Anyway, an interesting and relevant story from Novara Media's Aaron Bastani, about the time he was offered a job by the IPPR (soft-left economic think-tank) :

https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1574396263445008385

Or, more succinctly:

How anyone can believe that these shits are the lesser of two evils is beyond credulity

 

[Brian]

More accurately it's beyond far left extremists and others with an extreme agenda.

 

[Tony L]

More accurately it's beyond far left extremists and others with an extreme agenda.

I posted a fairly long list of things I wanted to vote for upthread somewhere. You replied that you agreed with them all aside from not being bothered about monarchy. Why bother voting for a party unwilling to implement any of them? If Labour end up little different to the Tories why bother?

PS It looks like PR has overwhelmingly been passed by conference. If it makes the manifesto as a formal pledge they get my vote. If not, they don’t. Ball is in your court Keir!

 

[ks.234]

More accurately it's beyond far left extremists and others with an extreme agenda.

Have you looked at the video yet?

 

[droodzilla]

<snip>

The extent to which the anti-Semitism thing was engineered by Labour’s right appears shocking, but I’m still not convinced there was no issue. It is also an area I’m not sure how impartial a Qatari news channel would be. I’m not taking this second episode without a pinch of salt given its one-sided nature, but the inner workings of the party do look pretty much as Alexi Sale describes above. The thing that really stood out for me was Starmer and the court case towards the end. That was all new to me and his decision really speaks volumes. See my view on digging holes.

Certainly an interesting documentary and only active reinforcement that Labour isn’t for me.

Very few people claim that there was no issue. The debate is really about the nature of the issue and its extent.

The key claim for me is that the extent of anti-Semitism in the party was overstated for factional reasons. At this stage, I think that, by any objective standard, that is beyond dispute.

Because I'm a physicist, I tend to look for reliable quantitative data to support any claim. I have maintained for a long time that there is no reliable quantitative data that shows anti-Semitism to be more prevalent in the Labour Party, than it is in society as a whole, and I have seen nothing to alter that conclusion. Of course, I would like there to be fewer anti-Semites in the Labour Party, but that requires an approach that ackowledges all of the complexities involved and is respectful to all participants in the debate (this is pretty much what the Forde report said). In particular, targetting left-wing Jewish members because they are "the wrong kind of Jew" is deeply sinister and only reinforces the suspicion that a factional vendetta is being conducted under the guise of fighting ant-Semitism.

About that quantitative data... I knew of a few polls that showed the Labour Party was not "overrun with anti-Semites" but finding them again online was almost impossible because any search involving "Labour" and "anti-Semitism" throws up so many results from clearly factional sources, not to mention the far-right press. Therefore, I was delighted when Jewish Voice for Labour published this article recently:

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.or...-labours-antisemitism-problem-was-overstated/

You might not agree with the argument, or the way the author interprets the data but the good thing about this article is that it contains links to pretty much all of the surveys I know of. In that sense, it's a valuable resource, when it comes to sifting fact from fiction.

For what it's worth, I too will watch the AJ with a critical eye, and be on the lookout for the usual journalistic tricks (omission, elision, ambiguity and so forth). I'm pretty good at this now, having become painfully familiar with such deceitful practices in The Guardian's reporting on anti-Semitism, and the Corbyn era generally.

 

[Seanm]

Yes, and I’d already reversed very publicly out from my initial position on Momentum. I got that wrong and had already admitted it/apologised. I make a lot of mistakes, but one thing you will never find me doing is digging into a hole due to not admitting it once I’ve figured it out. This is actually a key reason why I’m so baffled by tribal politics. In any situation I deal with (IT, business, music or whatever) if you screw up you admit it and reverse out as fast as possible with minimal damage. I will never understand things like Brexit where a clearly wrong and hugely damaging hole is dug endlessly deeper. The people who own the hole endlessly denying reality.

I still haven’t altered my opinion on Corbyn, but that was primarily based on watching his actions live at PMQs, in debates, seeing him immediately try to trigger A50 etc. He just wasn’t very bright IMHO, and certainly wasn’t a leader in waiting at a time of national crisis.

The extent to which the anti-Semitism thing was engineered by Labour’s right appears shocking, but I’m still not convinced there was no issue. It is also an area I’m not sure how impartial a Qatari news channel would be. I’m not taking this second episode without a pinch of salt given its one-sided nature, but the inner workings of the party do look pretty much as Alexi Sale describes above. The thing that really stood out for me was Starmer and the court case towards the end. That was all new to me and his decision really speaks volumes. See my view on digging holes.

Certainly an interesting documentary and only active reinforcement that Labour isn’t for me.

I think there was/is an issue too. It’s difficult to maintain that position *and* insist that it was exaggerated without being called a minimiser but that’s objectively the case, in my opinion. Not only that but its weaponisation made it harder (impossible) to address, made it worse - in the sense that left wing Jews were and still are being victimised - and intensified other forms of racism in the party. One of the most outrageous things to happen in British politics in recent years, against some stiff competition.

 

[Tony L]

Yes, I agree with both of you. There is a lot to be learned from the whole thing and from many perspectives.

As stated many times I’m not a Labour voter, but I do care very much about the integrity of UK politics (and of other nations). This documentary series is a simply damning snapshot of where we are, and with all the oligarch money laundering, dark-money, blatant multi-£bn corruption and utter contempt for the rule of law the Conservative Party appears in an even worse state.

The whole lot needs hosing out. It is rotten and entirely unfit for purpose. A failed state.

 

[Spraggons Den]

All this negativity on the day Labours poll lead over the Tories grows from 10 to 17%.

The broad-church that is the LP has always been a fight to the death between it’s hard left and more social democracy inclined wings. The hard left had their turn with Momentum and we’re roundly rejected by the electorate in 2019 with Labours worst defeat since 1935.

Now is the time of the rise of the Centrist Dads.

 

[Seanm]

Finally! *The* most underrepresented group!

 

[Brian]

I posted a fairly long list of things I wanted to vote for upthread somewhere. You replied that you agreed with them all aside from not being bothered about monarchy. Why bother voting for a party unwilling to implement any of them? If Labour end up little different to the Tories why bother?

PS It looks like PR has overwhelmingly been passed by conference. If it makes the manifesto as a formal pledge they get my vote. If not, they don’t. Ball is in your court Keir!

Yes, you did and here they are...

<snip>

My priorities are electoral reform, human rights, environmentalism, the building of good lasting infrastructure, anti-nationalism, economic reform, arts, science, the removal of monarchy, removal of state-funded/subsidised religion etc etc. </snip>

I bother because I don’t believe we are going to get a massive lurch to the centre left in one go. Small steps in a left direction is the best hope, imo. The tories are extreme right, Labour is to the left of the tories, is the only realistic chance of replacing the tories, we have to start somewhere and a Labour govt is that start.

I look at how much better than the tories Labour were the last time Labour was in govt and I expect them to be better than the tories again, though the damage done by the tories is even greater this time around. I believe Labour will be better for just about all of your list given how they did from ‘97 and the manifesto. Others will disagree for sure, but that’s my hope.

Failing to vote (tactically) in the best way to help Labour remove the tories at the next GE is likely to ensure another tory govt. People need to look at their priorities and stop moaning about the tories if removing them is not at the very top of the list.

The current smearing of the party by hard left extremists is little different to the smearing of Corbyn by the Labour right. All it will do is help the tories.

I think we should just agree to disagree. I want rid of the tories and Labour is the only party that can do it. That’s it. Once in govt campaigning can start to hopefully move Labour further to the left.

 

[ks.234]

Finally! *The* most underrepresented group!

Yes, we need more neoliberalism.

 

[Brian]

Have you looked at the video yet?

Post #1973. Why do you ask?

For about the 50th time. I always thought there was a smear campaign going on against Corbyn, you won’t find any posts here from me supporting the attacks on Labour under Corbyn or running down the party. I wanted that Labour party in govt and would prefer it now.

Interestingly, I see plenty of attacks on Labour from yourself and a few others.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

All this negativity on the day Labours poll lead over the Tories grows from 10 to 17
<snip>
The hard left had their turn with Momentum and we’re roundly rejected by the electorate in 2019 with Labours worst defeat since 1935.

Now is the time of the rise of the Centrist Dads.

It’s a mistake to assume that the left was ‘rejected’ in 2019. Rather, the electorate was distracted by the Johnson effect, and the smears against Corbyn - the man, not his policies. Labour lost, but assuming this signals a rejection of left leaning policies is a basic error and a common Tory trope which is weaponised to enable them to continue on a path which is now clearly not in the national interest.

 

[Brian]

It’s a mistake to assume that the left was ‘rejected’ in 2019. Rather, the electorate was distracted by the Johnson effect, and the smears against Corbyn - the man, not his policies. Labour lost, but assuming this signals a rejection of left leaning policies is a basic error and a common Tory trope.

Agreed. 2019 was all about brexit. It was a single issue election, not a rejection of Labour.

 

[Spraggons Den]

It’s a mistake to assume that the left was ‘rejected’ in 2019. Rather, the electorate was distracted by the Johnson effect, and the smears against Corbyn - the man, not his policies. Labour lost, but assuming this signals a rejection of left leaning policies is a basic error and a common Tory trope which is weaponised to enable them to continue on a path which is now clearly not in the national interest.

I don't know much about tropes or weaponisation. I agree Corbyn was vilified by the right wing rags but that goes with the territory and their influence is overstated in the age of multiple news outlets. Starmer is being similarly targeted at the moment but he has a solid lead in the opinion polls. No, the electorate had a good look at JC and decided he was not the one despite the Tories being in turmoil over brexit.

 

[paulfromcamden]

It’s a mistake to assume that the left was ‘rejected’ in 2019. Rather, the electorate was distracted by the Johnson effect, and the smears against Corbyn - the man, not his policies. Labour lost, but assuming this signals a rejection of left leaning policies is a basic error and a common Tory trope which is weaponised to enable them to continue on a path which is now clearly not in the national interest.

Agree with this. It wasn't a problem with policy. Rightly or wrongly, and for whatever reason, a lot of the electorate just couldn't take Corbyn seriously.

TBH I'm not sure how much elections are fought on policy anyway. Lots of people voted for Johnson because they liked him not because they supported his government's environmental policies or whatever. How many voters on election day could tell you two policies of the party they've just voted for. I suspect I'd struggle.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I don't know much about tropes or weaponisation. I agree Corbyn was vilified by the right wing rags but that goes with the territory and their influence is overstated in the age of multiple news outlets. Starmer is being similarly targeted at the moment but he has a solid lead in the opinion polls. No, the electorate had a good look at JC and decided he was not the one despite the Tories being in turmoil over brexit.

Yes, but you're making the same error of confusing Corbyn, the man, with Corbyn, the policies. You may argue that the public had a good look at 'him' and decided 'he' was not the one, but anybody using that as an argument that people don't want left-leaning policies, per se, is being a tad disingenuous.