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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VI

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Tony L said:
He’s absolutely right. No Conservative Party could ever survive in a real proportional democracy. They need the crooked, stacked and rigged table of FPTP. It is why the current system exists.
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That's just wishful thinking.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk...have-looked-with-proportional-representation/

Under PR, the 2019 result would have given the conservatives 288 seats vs the 365 they got under FPTP. They would have still been the biggest part in the HoC and would have required all other opposition parties to form a coalition to make a majority government. Do you think that would happen?
 
Seeker_UK said:
Under PR, the 2019 result would have given the conservatives 288 seats vs the 365 they got under FPTP. They would have still been the biggest part in the HoC and would have required all other opposition parties to form a coalition to make a majority government. Do you think that would happen?
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You seem to be misunderstanding the concepts of consensus government and political accountability. Do you think the worst of this government could have happened with those numbers, e.g. the economically and socially disastrous hard-Brexit, the removal of our human rights and civil liberties, the visceral fascism of Patel’s Rwanda human trafficking, the multi-£bn corruption and theft, the selling of peerages to donors, Johnson’s endless lying, rule-breaking and taking the piss out of us all? There is no way in hell any of that would have been allowed and the UK could have been saved from its current place as the dumpster fire of Europe.

I do not want any party to ever have a majority. I want to see all our voices heard. I want to see extremism of all kinds stopped in its tracks.
 
Tony L said:
You seem to be misunderstanding the concepts of consensus government and political accountability. Do you think the worst of this government could have happened with those numbers, e.g. the economically and socially disastrous hard-Brexit, the removal of our human rights and civil liberties, the visceral fascism of Patel’s Rwanda human trafficking, the multi-£bn corruption and theft, the selling of peerages to donors, Johnson’s endless lying, rule-breaking and taking the piss out of us all? There is no way in hell any of that would have been allowed and the UK could have been saved from its current place as the dumpster fire of Europe.

I do not want any party to ever have a majority. I want to see all our voices heard. I want to see extremism of all kinds stopped in its tracks.
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For PR to stop those things, it would have to destroy the Labour Party, since most of their MPs are pretty much on board with most of it.
 
Seanm said:
For PR to stop those things, it would have to destroy the Labour Party, since most of their MPs are pretty much on board with most of it.
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Agreed. I view the Labour Party as the other head of the two-headed establishment beast. The dim-witted brain-damaged head that for over a century hasn’t even grasped a system that has ensured they are out of power for 80% of their history is rigged. There really is a spectacular amount of dumb in the Labour Party, though I do see PR gaining more traction as the penny starts to drop with increasingly large numbers of people both inside and outside the party. Even mainstream politicians like Andy Burnham are on board now. IIRC many of the unions are too.

I still view the Labour Party as part of the problem, not the solution, which is why I’d never vote for them other than in a tactical anti-Tory/UKIP/fascist context. Anywhere else I’ll vote Green or LD as they believe in PR and always have done. As stated many times I view electoral reform as priority #1. I have felt this all my voting life (growing up in a Tory safe seat helped that penny drop as a kid). Everything else is secondary and I would vote for *anything* to get PR installed as only after that point we can finally move forward. Without it we can’t.
 
Woodface said:
The current government is the worst in my lifetime, I never thought Thatcher could be beaten in terms of my hatred but BJ wins out.

To be honest, pretty much anyone in the current Labour Party would be an upgrade so why not just get behind them & see this lot off?
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To answer that question we would need to know what the upgrade would look like in order to work out if it would be any better.

So far Starmer has a track record of lies and deceit almost as impressive as Johnson’s, so the evidence that he would be in upgrade is far from conclusive
 
Potentially good news for Starmer:

"Two policy wins for Labour today - Sunak to announce a windfall tax and scrap the ‘loan’ element of his energy bills discount. Notable as it’s rare the Opposition forces policy changes on the Government, especially on Treasury stuff."
 
ks.234 said:
To answer that question we would need to know what the upgrade would look like in order to work out if it would be any better.

So far Starmer has a track record of lies and deceit almost as impressive as Johnson’s, so the evidence that he would be in upgrade is far from conclusive
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And Hillary might have been just as bad as Trump. That so many on the UK left have not learned from the experience of the last 6 years leaves me feeling pretty hopeless for the future.
 
Indeed. The responsibility is with Labour to provide something that isn’t shit. Sadly they just aren’t up to that job. Even alleged patron saint of the left Jeremy Corbyn wasn’t prepared to back electoral reform or stand firmly against far-right ethnic nationalism. An all but useless political party. No real fight in any of them.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
If you have a choice of two, bad, options the lesser evil strategy is all you've got.
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And if you put up with that over a long period you will inevitably end up...here. The logic is inexorable and at a certain stage you just have to refuse it. At the very least I'd ask the finger-waggers to acknowledge that there are some issues here: the exasperated "When will you learn!" tone is insufferable.
 
Seeker_UK said:
That's just wishful thinking.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk...have-looked-with-proportional-representation/

Under PR, the 2019 result would have given the conservatives 288 seats vs the 365 they got under FPTP. They would have still been the biggest part in the HoC and would have required all other opposition parties to form a coalition to make a majority government. Do you think that would happen?
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My suspicion has always been that England at least has a basically Centre/Right electorate.
 
sean99 said:
And Hillary might have been just as bad as Trump. That so many on the UK left have not learned from the experience of the last 6 years leaves me feeling pretty hopeless for the future.
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It wasn’t the left that voted for Trump. Neither was it the left who voted for Johnson.

It was the centrists in both cases who rejected real alternatives to Trump and Johnson. It was the centrists who voted for continuity rather than change.

Centrists hold the power, not the left. The left is dead or dying. If the future is hopeless, only centrists can change it.
 
Seanm said:
And if you put up with that over a long period you will inevitably end up...here. The logic is inexorable and at a certain stage you just have to refuse it. At the very least I'd ask the finger-waggers to acknowledge that there are some issues here: the exasperated "When will you learn!" tone is insufferable.
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As a voter, I don't have much option but to put up with it, though. How am I to refuse it, other than disenfranchising myself?
 
Seanm said:
Vote for someone who isn't giving you the finger, basically.
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Which forces you to a minority party who simply aren’t represented via the broken electoral system. The Conservative and Labour party have never ceased giving me the finger for even a split-second the whole of my voting life. I have never not been disenfranchised.
 
Tony L said:
Indeed. The responsibility is with Labour to provide something that isn’t shit. Sadly they just aren’t up to that job. Even alleged patron saint of the left Jeremy Corbyn wasn’t prepared to back electoral reform or stand firmly against far-right ethnic nationalism. An all but useless political party. No real fight in any of them.
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No. The problem is with centrists who have voted for continuity of the same social and economic policies for the last half century or more. Corbyn has got nothing to do with that continuity.

The Road To Far Right Ethnic Nationalism did not start in 2015. It started when Liberal Economic principles caved into the greed of the individual and then sought to erect barriers around individual gain to protect it from outsiders
 
ks.234 said:
The Road To Far Right Ethnic Nationalism did not start in 2015. It started when Liberal Economic principles caved into the greed of the individual and then sought to erect barriers around individual gain to protect it from outsiders
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I’m not denying that, though the far-right has unquestionably gained the largest land-grab of my lifetime by far through their Brexit project. I knew it was going to be bad and it is exponentially worse than I feared. Societal/economic collapse and descent into fascism I suspected would take decades is happening in months. 1970s National Front policy is now routinely being implemented by an allegedly mainstream Conservative Party.

The electoral system is the root problem, and the mainstream Labour Party the clammy fat decaying shitberg blocking its removal. Only once we have democratic representation and accountability can any alternative economic or other political thinking stand even a hope in hell of gaining traction.
 
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