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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer V

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Brian said:
Another forum scraper...

How come you didn’t unearth the more recent one where I said I vote tactically and rarely vote Labour? Surely that one would have been a better example?

Believe whatever you wish to believe.
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Because that example was good enough. You've just added to it by referring to the other example for me anyway.
 
ciderglider said:
Surely that justifies Labour's approach of expelling the tankies? If the media prevents radical policies becoming popular, they're obliged to focus instead on something marginally to the left of the Tories.
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They don’t so much stop such policies from being popular (they are popular) as stop anyone other than these very specific people - basically, old New Labour and more recent tribute acts - from being considered credible enough to deliver any policy. In some ways it didn’t matter what Corbyn’s lot were pushing: the insult, as far as the right were concerned, was that the wrong people were in charge. That’s why the policies themselves were rarely attacked: the attacks were on the people suggesting them.

You can’t appease these people by embracing their horrible policies because they’re an afterthought, really. What they care about is being in charge, of an eternal opposition if necessary (and later some business or other). Anything that threatens their position is completely intolerable to them no matter what ideological form it takes.
 
ciderglider said:
Surely that justifies Labour's approach of expelling the tankies? If the media prevents radical policies becoming popular, they're obliged to focus instead on something marginally to the left of the Tories.
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If ‘tankies’ are hard line Stalinists, who are these tankies and what is it they stand for that makes them hard line Stalinists? Other than failing to be only slightly left of the hard right?
 
Tony L said:
It also has a progressive party playing in a whole different league to those in the rest of the UK!
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Comparing the recent manifesto’s of the Labour party and the SNP, can you explain what makes the SNP progressive and Labour not so? Another negative post about Corbyn is not the answer.

The manifesto’s are a matter of record, I’m interested in what it is you prefer about the SNP manifesto compared to what you rejected from Labour in 2019.
 
Seanm said:
They don’t so much stop such policies from being popular (they are popular)
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If the policies are popular, despite the media bias Jim Audiomisc describes, why not field these policies in a new party, free from the dead hand of the liberal philanthropists?
 
ciderglider said:
If the policies are popular, despite the media bias Jim Audiomisc describes, why not field these policies in a new party, free from the dead hand of the liberal philanthropists?
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It’s not enough that the policies are popular, they have to be seen as realistic. That requires a real power base and the ability to represent it realistically. I’m not optimistic, personally, that either of those things are going to emerge in the short term but you never know. No idea what role a new party or the old party might play.
 
paulfromcamden said:
You reckon people vote based on policies Sean? Hmm.
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No, as I say. We’re not often given the opportunity to vote on policy - it’s usually all the same bland crap and isn’t seriously discussed anyway - but when we are what matters as much as the policy is voters’ perception of whether the parties can actually deliver or not.

Last election, Tories had 2 policies: persecute Gypsies and Travellers (quite niche but still popular), and get Brexit done no matter how absurd and destructive the means. That all struck many voters as realistic, for good reason. The stupidity and malice of the Tories’ election campaign communicated very persuasively the message that here was a party that really didn’t GAF, but was up for hurting people.

Labour offered a raft of policies that recognised how serious some of the issues facing the country are and offered solutions that balanced caution and radicalism. Voters liked the policies but LOL-ed at the idea they’d ever be allowed to implement them. Again the instinct was probably correct and again the campaign did a lot to confirm it.
 
ciderglider said:
Surely that justifies Labour's approach of expelling the tankies? If the media prevents radical policies becoming popular, they're obliged to focus instead on something marginally to the left of the Tories.
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That a lot of the media *has* (past tense) prevented something doesn't mean it *always* will. That's a matter of how long, and what happens/ is done to change that situation.

Yes, it is easier to give up. But some people don't like doing that when so many people are being exploited, kept in poverty, lied to/about etc. Up to you and others if you prefer to ignore that and say/do nothing.

TBH I guess I also have a strong 'Ed Biz' streak in me. Just as I like finding out things about science/tech and explaining them to others. So I tend to feel the same way about social/economic/etc processes when so many are kept in the dark as they put up with the sh!t-sandwich the wealthy hand to them. In the end you have to decide which side you're on, I guess.
 
Brian said:
Comparing the recent manifesto’s of the Labour party and the SNP, can you explain what makes the SNP progressive and Labour not so? Another negative post about Corbyn is not the answer.

The manifesto’s are a matter of record, I’m interested in what it is you prefer about the SNP manifesto compared to what you rejected from Labour in 2019.
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I can't personally relate that to manifestos. But I can notice that under the SNP Scotland has made a number of changes relative to England. e.g. ending the sale of social housing some years ago. e.g.2 not adopting all the 'reforms' of the NHS that allow blood-sucking by the private sector. e.g. essentially abolishing leaseholding for homes. e.g.3 changed the way the railway here is treated. e.g.4 changed the income tax rates here to shift the burden up the scale. e.g5 changes in the laws related to large land ownership.

i.e. doing things that the UK Government should have done. Particularly in periods when Blair / Brown were in office. Each step perhaps small, but generally supported by people, and in the right directions.

Most of these changes probably went unreported 'down South'.
 
For some reason this discussion suddenly caused me to recall something from decades ago. This is that back in the early 1960s the paper we now loath as 'The Sun' was pre-Murdock and wished to actually inform its readers. One aspect of this was that for a time it ran a 'cartoon strip' called "Frontiers of Science". This was a factual strip explaining various topics in science and technology. Somehow I can't imagine it appearing in The Sun these days...

Being a pre-geek even then, I used to snip it out and kept it in a scrapbook.
 
ciderglider said:
Surely that justifies Labour's approach of expelling the tankies? If the media prevents radical policies becoming popular, they're obliged to focus instead on something marginally to the left of the Tories.
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Its not just the media though. Yes the media is responsible for lining up propaganda stories to demonise any challenge to the existing order, but the fact is that such propaganda finds a ready audience when people jump to pejoratives such as ‘tankies’ to describe any challenge to the existing order all on their own!
 
Seanm said:
No, as I say. We’re not often given the opportunity to vote on policy - it’s usually all the same bland crap and isn’t seriously discussed anyway - but when we are what matters as much as the policy is voters’ perception of whether the parties can actually deliver or not.
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I think there's some truth in that but I suspect you have a slightly more optimistic view of the electorate than I do. Would be interesting to ask random voters leaving a polling station to name four policies proposed by the party they'd just voted for. I suspect I'd struggle tbh.
 
paulfromcamden said:
I think there's some truth in that but I suspect you have a slightly more optimistic view of the electorate than I do. Would be interesting to ask random voters leaving a polling station to name four policies proposed by the party they'd just voted for. I suspect I'd struggle tbh.
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“Boris, he’s a character and we need more characters in politics tbh”
“Boris will get Brexit done”
“Boris will stand up for us”
“There’s too many of them comin in”
 
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