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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer IV

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Tony L said:
Does anyone actually want one though? What’s the point when they don’t stand for anything?
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Their manifesto in 2017 and 2019 were very good, not standing for anything is not why they did not gain a majority.

10,295,912 people voted for Labour in 2019, so at least that many disagree with you they don’t stand for anything and would like a Labour govt. Consider the tactical voters and it is more than that.

Oh, and an important point is they would be a damn sight better than the tory govt.
 
On the subject of centre left, let’s examine the matter of nurse’s pay,

The Tories offered 1%, so what was the extent of Labour’s ambition?- 2.1%
Daily Mirror, April 2021:
Labour's Carolyn Harris tabled a Ten Minute Rule Bill which, if approved, would mean the Government would have to report to Parliament on an NHS pay deal for a rise of below 2.1% – and vote on the level of the hike.

In Scotland,
Health and social care Increase of 4% to be implemented.
https://www.gov.scot/news/pay-rise-for-nhs-workers/

Let’s not pretend there are no left of centre parties in Britain.
 
lordsummit said:
I’m afraid Brian you’re going to have to accept that if Labour want a seat at the decision making table in future they’re going to have to share it with the SNP. To not do so is enabling future Tory governments. If they’re clever they may be able to do this and preserve the Union. Your constant harping on about Scottish nationalism is as tone deaf as hoping to reverse Brexit in the immediate future. Either Labour find a way to work with the SNP, make devolution of countries and regions a cornerstone of their policy, or they have no chance of forming a government. They’re not going to do it by themselves.

Have you any better ideas, or are they secret too?
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History would suggest that the Tories will lose a GE eventually, although probably not in 2024. Labour have enough division within their own party without an SNP element.
 
SteveS1 said:
Bit harsh, they didn't really did they? The price Cameron extracted was to be able to distort the simplicity of PR into the complex AV, knowing that would be enough to kill it.

Don't get me wrong, I support a far more representative system than FPTP but PR needs to be presented with certain thresholds if you are to avoid swapping one flawed system for another.
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Yes, absolutely agree. Also agree that the supine Lib Dem’s sold out their flagship policy, as well as their primary election pledge, for a short lived sniff of power.

However much I support PR, I fear vested interests in both our main parties will make any further promotions of PR sound too complicated and our naturally small c conservative electorate will be easily persuaded to stick with what we’ve got.

Personally I feel we need a national discussion to highlight the need for PR before it can be sold at the ballot box. How or who would get that conversation going is the problem, the Lib Dem’s themselves don’t seem to highlight it outside election sloganeering, and we’ve seen what happens to LD slogans once they get giddy with the possibility of power.
 
ks.234 said:
Yes, absolutely agree. Also agree that the supine Lib Dem’s sold out their flagship policy, as well as their primary election pledge, for a short lived sniff of power.

However much I support PR, I fear vested interests in both our main parties will make any further promotions of PR sound too complicated and our naturally small c conservative electorate will be easily persuaded to stick with what we’ve got.

Personally I feel we need a national discussion to highlight the need for PR before it can be sold at the ballot box. How or who would get that conversation going is the problem, the Lib Dem’s themselves don’t seem to highlight it outside election sloganeering, and we’ve seen what happens to LD slogans once they get giddy with the possibility of power.
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Nigel Farage?
 
Colin Barron said:
An obvious statement that is missed by many who enable the Tories by not voting or voting for parties that have no hope of being in government.
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It is an obvious statement, but it is equally obvious that people who choose to vote for either of the main parties have not done so because they ‘miss’ anything. To claim they miss the obvious is to suggest ignorance, which is just rude.

People who vote for other parties do so out of considered principle, not out of ignorance as you seem to be suggesting.
 
ks.234 said:
Yes, absolutely agree. Also agree that the supine Lib Dem’s sold out their flagship policy, as well as their primary election pledge, for a short lived sniff of power.
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I remember at the time thinking that Nick Clegg was a genuine bloke, but his eyes told me he knew he was out of his political depth. The Lib Dems in coalition got played, I don't think they sold out, as such.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I remember at the time thinking that Nick Clegg was a genuine bloke, but his eyes told me he knew he was out of his political depth. The Lib Dems in coalition got played, I don't think they sold out, as such.
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I voted for him, specifically his pledge on tuition fees. Never again. Any politician who breaks election pledges is not worth voting for. Unfortunately Starmer also falls into that category.
 
ks.234 said:
It is an obvious statement, but it is equally obvious that people who choose to vote for either of the main parties have not done so because they ‘miss’ anything. To claim they miss the obvious is to suggest ignorance, which is just rude.

People who vote for other parties do so out of considered principle, not out of ignorance as you seem to be suggesting.
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Well, it explains the rational for the hoards dropping ukip/brexit company/britain first for the Tories at the GE. The Tory Party is a broad church now.
 
TheDecameron said:
Well, it explains the rational for the hoards dropping ukip/brexit company/britain first for the Tories at the GE. The Tory Party is a broad church now.
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But people who voted for Boris Johnson cannot have done so in ignorance of the fact that he is a known devious liar. They must’ve voted for either because he’s a devious liar or in spite of him being a devious liar. Not sure what principle that underscores mind?
 
TheDecameron said:
On the subject of centre left, let’s examine the matter of nurse’s pay,

The Tories offered 1%, so what was the extent of Labour’s ambition?- 2.1%
Daily Mirror, April 2021:
Labour's Carolyn Harris tabled a Ten Minute Rule Bill which, if approved, would mean the Government would have to report to Parliament on an NHS pay deal for a rise of below 2.1% – and vote on the level of the hike.

In Scotland,
Health and social care Increase of 4% to be implemented.
https://www.gov.scot/news/pay-rise-for-nhs-workers/

Let’s not pretend there are no left of centre parties in Britain.
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Who’s pretending?

The SNP is not relevant to the discussion in the context of a centre left party in the UK. They would be if they put up candidates across the UK but as a single issue party there is no chance of that.

ks.234 said:
They did. It didn’t.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum
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Nope, they didn’t. There was not a referendum on PR, there was a referendum on AV, as described in your link.
 
Brian said:
Who’s pretending?

The SNP is not relevant to the discussion in the context of a centre left party in the UK. They would be if they put up candidates across the UK but as a single issue party there is no chance of that.


Nope, they didn’t. There was not a referendum on PR, there was a referendum on AV, as described in your link.
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If they’re not ‘relevant’ Brian, why do you spend so much time talking about them? Re your second sentence- the clue is in the name, duh!
BTW thank you for acknowledging they are a centre left party.
 
TheDecameron said:
If they’re not ‘relevant’ Brian, why do you spend so much time talking about them? Re your second sentence- the clue is in the name, duh!
BTW thank you for acknowledging they are a centre left party.
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Duh, I didn’t. While we’re dishing out thanks, I thank you for showing your main interest is not in centre left politics. The clue is in the Labour manifesto’s of 2010, 2015, 2017 and 2019 and your preference for nationalism.

Oh, and I talk about them mainly because I dislike nationalism and 41-40=1.
 
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