Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
But you do get Rupert.
Labour Leader: Keir Starmer IV
- Thread starter droodzilla
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But you do get Rupert.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Your first two points seem fair and consistent with my understanding, though I have to wonder why evicting the Palestinian residents is even a question.I really don't know how that was allowed to happen - someone has taken their eye off the ball big time here. Maybe the Israeli government has been too obsessed of late in working out who is supposed to be PM in the wake of the latest round of election results to take any notice of what has been happening on their doorstep.
Apparently a court case is pending on whether to allow the eviction of residents from their houses in Sheikh Jarrah in favour of Jewish settlers but the decision has been postponed. Too late to quell the rising tension and violence though, it would appear.
It would kind of help if those voices calling for Israel to respect international law would also call out Hamas to stop firing thousands of missiles into Israel - it's not much to ask but it would be a start!
On your third point I am happy to oblige. I'm virtually a pacifist and despise all forms of violence.
My only reservation is that this demand (to condemn Hamas' rockets etc.) is often used as a deflection tactic, as the good doctor's recent interventions on the forum demonstrate.
It's important to be clear that the two "sides" in this "conflict" are unevenly matched (vastly so) and that one is occupying the other. Furthermore, the mood in Israel seems to be shifting more and more towards extreme nationalism, and the hopes of any peaceful agreement are vanishing as a result. Frankly, I don't know what I would do if I were a Palestinian facing that situation.
Realistically, ony Israel has enough power to change things (some concession or magnanimous gesture). But that would require the political will to do so, and the statesmanship to carry it off. I don't believe Netanyahu has either. Is there any Israeli politician who does?
mandryka
pfm Member
I think Badiou’s point was more fundamental than that. I think he was saying that if a political party like Labour went to the electorate with a policy which challenged the power of the capitalist elite, the process of parliamentary democracy would ensure they were defeated - that’s exactly what happened in the UK in 2019 IMO. He argued that’s why parliament was created and it still essentially serves that function. If he’s right then the most that democratic politics can achieve is very minor and probably very short lived adjustments to inequality in favour of the less well off - a bit of extra benefit here and there, that sort of thing.
He’s a communist, he thinks that meaningful structural change must come through revolution, not evolution. As I say, I’m not saying whether he’s right or not, I don’t know. And if he is right, I’m not sure what consequences follow.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Back to Labour Party matters, there was a good interview with the leader of Preston Council on Novara yesterday:
Labour did well in Preston last week, bucking the national trend. It's probably because they are very visibly on the side of local people and have achieved a number of successes without relying on large corporate developers.
A book about the lessons that might be learned from this has just come out:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1913462196/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21
Should be on the top of Starmer's reading list (but probably won't be).
Labour did well in Preston last week, bucking the national trend. It's probably because they are very visibly on the side of local people and have achieved a number of successes without relying on large corporate developers.
A book about the lessons that might be learned from this has just come out:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1913462196/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21
Should be on the top of Starmer's reading list (but probably won't be).
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
Thorn
pfm Member
I will not carry id now or in the future, no matter what the legislation therefor. I accept I need a driving license, and will happily produce it at a police station if asked. I accept I need a passport to enter the country, and will carry that when I go abroad.People without passports and driving licenses are overwhelmingly Labour voters, that much is a fact. It's nothing more than Republican style voter suppression, there's no evidence of significant electoral fraud (other than Tory candidates lying about previous drink driving convictions and the like
If it becomes a requirement for voting, I will turn up to a polling station without any I'd, and if refused my right to vote I'll make a fuss. If enough of us do that then perhaps the press will take notice and there will be a groundswell to repeal the undemocratic and fascist legislation.
ciderglider
pfm Member
So how come he's sat chatting on TV instead leading the vanguard to the barricades?
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
Parliament was created as a means of formalising relationships between the monarch and the nobility, in particular over the raising of revenue through taxation. It predates capitalism by several centuries.
Parliament is supreme; if a party was elected banning the ownership of capital, that would override the power of the capitalist elite. That is won't happen is not the same as saying it couldn't happen.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
The pay's better.
I think your assessment of where Israel is politically right now is more or less correct. The political outlook seems to have turned increasingly to the right with moderate left-leaning Labour all but decimated. Indeed under some proposed new coalition arrangements Netanyahu has stated he is prepared to step down in favour of none other than Naftali Bennett, a politician who is even more right-wing than him, and someone who I seem to recall during the 2014 Gaza war actually proposed the overthrow of Hamas in Gaza. Given the extent of Hamas' entrechment in the territory I cannot even begin to comprehend the level of bloodshed that would have ensued had this policy been followed through.
I suspect the Israeli electorate have turned increasingly towards the right of the political spectrum in response to a perception that the rest of the world is out to get them, and that it is the right that are the guarantors of their security. Israel is the only functioning democracy in the Middle East yet subject to a massively disproportionate swathe of UN resolutions plus attempts to delegitimise the country from all over the place. In addition it's a hugely depressing situation that whenever this sort of violence develops the Jewish diaspora is forced to brace itself for a rise in antisemitic attacks the world over.
None of this will cut much ice with Netanyahu and his acolytes though. For as long as it plays well with his base he will keep up the air attacks on Gaza, and doubtless Hamas will respond in kind, at least until they (temporarily at least) run out of rockets to fire. I cling to the hope that the violence fizzles out before anyone in the government or the military decides it's high time they invaded Gaza again.
I am actually amazed there hasn't been a war fought on the ground in Gaza for seven years now. That must be some kind of record. There has been the odd missile attack from the likes of Islamic Jihad but Hamas, most of the time, have done their best to keep a lid on things. They are now, however, unquestionably participants in the latest round of violence, so I would respectfully dispute your suggestion that doctorf's (and by inference my) suggestion that they should also be called to cease and desist is some kind of deflection tactic! Having said that:
Thank you.
Seanm
pfm Member
Love big Al. He’s not wrong is he. He has an extremely exacting conception of politics as something very rare: what passes as politics in everyday life is just business as usual. I think Corbynism was an outbreak of actual politics but Badiou would probably say that because its main site was parliament it couldn’t possibly have been. And I wouldn’t really want to argue the point, at this stage.
In fairness he must be getting on for 90 now. He’s spent a lot of time on the barricades and he does “lead” (or did) a sort of vanguardist group. I think there were about 3 people in it but it was good!
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Don't forget the Israel and the US (together with the Arab states) backed Dahlan in the failed coup attempt against Hamas. Of course Hamas is going to show that it can defend Palestinian people, for its own survival if nothing else. The other aspect is the failure of Abbas to hold elections and the challenge to his authority. That doesn't make Hamas and Israel equal protagonists. It is no surprise that there has been a return to hostilities against that backgound in response to dreadful Israeli oppression, but it seems to have caught Biden off guard.
mandryka
pfm Member
This is what he said (more or less - it's a very quick translation)
In the 19th century the workers movement called parliamentary democracy parliamentary imbecility. They were, from that point of view, more aware and more radical than we are. In reality everyone sees today that the parliamentary system -- which I prefer to call parliamentary capitalism -- is the preferred system of large capitalist nations through the whole world. Furthermore it was invented by the British at the end of the 18th century, not at all with any liberating or socialist intentions, but rather with the intention of consolidating definitively the relations of the bourgeoisie and the nobility .
One man one vote is not a characteristic of democracy. It's one man one vote in the conditions of information and education and financial, military and political forces in place . . . Alain XXX (I can't make out but he was active in Mitterrand's election campaign) said this, which I think is very true In our regime elections are for changing the government, not for changing society.
Invité : Alain Badiou - Extrait C ce soir en streaming | France tv (at about 16.40)
Seanm
pfm Member
Badiou is totally faithful to ‘68! Unashamedly.
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
mandryka
pfm Member
There were barricades quite recently in France of course, but he was totally scathing about the Gilets Jaunes. He said that their protest is totally lacking any political aspirations. The only political consequence they had was that they gave Macron a dressing down. But that doesn't mean much. The Gilets Jaunes stayed within the established parliamentary system and just complained and protested about some points which effect the middle classes.
He did say something interesting about politics though, and it's maybe the sort of thing which really should be happening here in the UK. He said that it's probably impossible for a political movement to get anywhere without popular ("working class") support. And this is hard for lefties because so many of these people are either, to steal Sean's favourite word, rentiers or aspiring rentiers. So one of the most important task of left wing politics today, he thinks, is to divide the working class, into those who are irredeemably capitalist and those who are more open to communist ideas.
Anyway, I thought this was interesting given all the disappointment about ordinary British people's values and aspirations I read on this thread.
mandryka
pfm Member
Je suis Marxiste—tendance Groucho.
If you read through this thread, and elsewhere on Pink Fish, it is clear, I think, that many people believe that the political system in the UK is not delivering a fairer society because of systematic faults. I think they may be right. I also think that there are three choices
1. Flog a dead horse, whine on social media, die.
2. Bury head in sand, leave the UK -- but go where?
3. Badiou.
I hate to break up the self loathing but does anyone actually believe that France is more egalitarian than here? I mean, they quite like electing actual fascists, at least we make some effort of pretence
I think the preferred response is to bury head in sand, whine on here or adopt an I'm alright mindset. The latter is probably the prevalent one in society today.
I think the preferred response is to bury head in sand, whine on here or adopt an I'm alright mindset. The latter is probably the prevalent one in society today.
Seanm
pfm Member
You missed another option: whine about people whining on hereI hate to break up the self loathing but does anyone actually believe that France is more egalitarian than here? I mean, they quite like electing actual fascists, at least we make some effort of pretence
I think the preferred response is to bury head in sand, whine on here or adopt an I'm alright mindset. The latter is probably the prevalent one in society today.
Whatever you think of the French they’re a good deal less compliant than the Brits.
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