Labour Leader: Keir Starmer IV

[Woodface]

Who's revising what?

I voted for Corbyn in 2015 because, like Yvette Cooper and Liz Kendall, Burnham ran an uninspiring campaign. He wised up towards the end and started to offer a more left-wing vision, but by then it was too late. I respect him for his stance on Hillsborough which was opposed by Blair (in Murdoch's pocket, as usual).

As for now, I'd settle for Burnham, as would many a soft(ish) lefty, I think. Anything has to be better than the present catstrophe and the all out factional purge the right of the party has now started.

You’ve literally just revised your opinion of him. I feel it is confirmation bias as you have never liked Starmer & still hold a candle for JC

I would welcome JC being a policy adviser btw, not absolute power but he has come up with some good ideas.

 

[gavreid]

The frustrating thing is that in a PR based system, these groups could happily coexist as smaller parties and then cooperate as necessary to form governments. Works in most other countries....

Yes, it might even come to a point that Labour is a minority voice. That could happen in time even with FPTP, it's pretty easy to see Tories and Labour on say 30% each, plus SNP and 'new' progessive parties (maybe regional parties or metropolitan parties) too.

 

[droodzilla]

You’ve literally just revised your opinion of him. I feel it is confirmation bias as you have never liked Starmer & still hold a candle for JC

I would welcome JC being a policy adviser btw, not absolute power but he has come up with some good ideas.

Revisionism is when you claim to think something that you did not think at the time. It's different from changing one's mind in the light of new developments.

Agree with your last point. Having JC in some kind of ceremonial role would have been a canny move as far as party unity is concerned. But it would have been impossible to do that after one faction in the party had bellowed for several years that he was the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler.

 

[Seanm]

The biggest problem that Labour have is that they invest more energy into factional in-fighting than they do into fighting the Tories. The Democrats did this prior to the 2016 election but they learned their lesson and there has been a strong show of unity both pre and post the 2020 election. Biden was an uninspiring choice and some of his policies are disappointing (healthcare) but another 4 years of Trump would have been the end of the US. ISTM the Labour party politicians aren't really serious about getting into power because if they were there would be a lot less infighting (as witnessed in many posts in this thread).

A new leader will not change any of this - particularly if the leader is seen to favour one of the factions over the others.

Even united Labour would face an uphill battle with the UK press landscape, but divided and infighting they will be out of power for a generation. I'm f*ck*ng sick to death of hearing debates about where the center is and what constitutes a true left policy - just come up with some policies to unite around that offer a serious alternative to the Tories and start selling them to the electorate.

Sorry to harp on, but we need to get over the fact of in-fighting and ask who’s actually doing it, how, and why. It’s the right! And more specifically the undead right: actual Blairites from the’90s. They’re doing it by purging prominent figures even slightly to the left of, say, Gordon Brown, by centralising power (suspending constituency parties, imposing candidates etc.) and by sheltering right wing local councils, an important part of their base. It’s this last that is most significant because it blocks the kind of local initiatives that everyone can now see are effective in stopping the rot and even reversing the decline. As for why they’re doing it, it’s to keep their jobs: right wing apparatchiks, councillors and many MPs are safe enough in opposition under the right: in government under the left they’re in trouble.

Who the leader is, what they do, what the policies are - it’s all secondary to these factional manoeuvres on the part of the right. You might say the left are as bad but it’s not really relevant: they’re not the ones doing any of this and they’re not really in a position to do anything beyond pointing out what’s happening.

 

[matt j]

Ironically, Burnham is very much a career politician whereas Sir Keir isn't and has had a proper job.

Yes I know, he just seems to talk normally rather than in focus group double speak.

Starmer appears a bit too 'android' for my liking.

 

[matthewr]

I mentioned rail re-nationalisation when I posted yesterday - it seems to me this is the sort of thing Labour should be championing by definition, but I have no idea whether anyone in the top echelons of the party supports this idea or not. For me that's a pretty strange place for the Labour party to be in.

Rail renationalisation is basically a middle class subsidy for SE commuters and otherwise only popular with people for whom railways are totemic. It would be much better to spend the money on buses and improving regional networks.

 

[matthewr]

The problem is the party is a dysfunctional archaic wing of the undemocratic conservative establishment and a handful of decent people in the ranks will never change that. Just kill it!

It's the largest mass membership political movement in Europe!

 

[JonR]

Rail renationalisation is basically a middle class subsidy for SE commuters and otherwise only popular with people for whom railways are totemic. It would be much better to spend the money on buses and improving regional networks.

Nothing wrong with the idea of railways as a totem - the UK was good at it once upon a time. Buses? I think that, as far as London is concerned, there are more than enough of them already (the sheer numbers of double-deckers queuing up Oxford Street as they await a green light to cross over Oxford Circus was an every day sight I'll not forget in a hurry), unless you mean replace a lot of older diesel-engined vehicles with electric or hydrogen fuel-cell examples. Across the rest of the country, and especially in rural areas where there is no other way of getting around, I can appreciate there is a case to made.

As far as "improving regional networks" is concerned, can you clarify? I think what we need is more trams (but that's just me).

 

[Seanm]

How Labour lost Bristol to the Greens:

https://twitter.com/isaac_kh/status/1392070737293361155?s=21

 

[matthewr]

Nothing wrong with the idea of railways as a totem - the UK was good at it once upon a time. Buses? I think that, as far as London is concerned, there are more than enough of them already (the sheer numbers of double-deckers queuing up Oxford Street as they await a green light to cross over Oxford Circus was an every day sight I'll not forget in a hurry), unless you mean replace a lot of older diesel-engined vehicles with electric or hydrogen fuel-cell examples. Across the rest of the country, and especially in rural areas where there is no other way of getting around, I can appreciate there is a case to made.

As far as "improving regional networks" is concerned, can you clarify? I think what we need is more trams (but that's just me).

I don't think you should spend billions on symbolic projects.

And I suggest investing in buses as this is much more important for how lower income people get around than the railways which are mostly an expensive form of transport favoured by the well off.

By regional networks I am suggesting investing in places outside London.

 

[Woodface]

Revisionism is when you claim to think something that you did not think at the time. It's different from changing one's mind in the light of new developments.

Agree with your last point. Having JC in some kind of ceremonial role would have been a canny move as far as party unity is concerned. But it would have been impossible to do that after one faction in the party had bellowed for several years that he was the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler.

He did have a blind spot re AS, I never saw him as a Hitler sympathiser though. I don’t think Burnham has really changed, he’s just more comfortable on a local level; it’s a much easier gig. I don’t believe he would unite the party; it would take somebody truly brilliant to do that.

 

[lordsummit]

I think the first thing any party needs to do to wrestle power from the Conservatives is to stop London being the be all and end all. Investment in the regions and devolution would really help swing people towards whichever party can do it.

 

[Woodface]

I think the first thing any party needs to do to wrestle power from the Conservatives is to stop London being the be all and end all. Investment in the regions and devolution would really help swing people towards whichever party can do it.

Unfortunately only the Tories seem to be talking about this. I’d be amazed if they actually do it but...

 

[Woodface]

I don't think you should spend billions on symbolic projects.

And I suggest investing in buses as this is much more important for how lower income people get around than the railways which are mostly an expensive form of transport favoured by the well off.

By regional networks I am suggesting investing in places outside London.

Rail travel is only expensive if you travel in peak & those in the SE probably do get a salary benefit working in London. Off peak rail is very cost effective in this country if you book ahead.

We really need better public transport with a capped fare structure akin to TFL but across the country. Whenever I visit the capital I am amazed by how efficient the Tube is & how everything is walkable.

Sheffield used to have a great bus service, you could travel right across the city for 10p; this wasn’t that long ago, 80s?

 

[ciderglider]

Unfortunately only the Tories seem to be talking about this. I’d be amazed if they actually do it but...

Well the EU tried funding the regions, and what thanks did they get? Maybe they spent money on things people didn't want, or were they just no good at publicising their good works.

 

[Tony L]

I think the first thing any party needs to do to wrestle power from the Conservatives is to stop London being the be all and end all. Investment in the regions and devolution would really help swing people towards whichever party can do it.

In fairness I don’t think it is these days. The other major cities (Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield and I assume Birmingham (never been there!)) are all vibrant and productive. The problem is the “Labour heartlands”, the working class areas that grew from mass labour such as mill work, mining, shipbuilding etc. They serve no productive purpose in the 21st century and it is hard to think of a way to bring them back into a world that will never again need that kind of job role.

At heart this is a technology and culture thing, not a location one IMO. It just impacts certain locations due to history and obsolescence. I don’t know how it can be fixed beyond accepting we live in a totally different world that will never again have full employment. My best guess is the implementation of a decent universal basic income, and then encourage individual entrepreneurism, micro-businesses etc. Also seriously fund the arts, leisure industries etc, as that is also where the future lies as more and more people have more free time. Where we are just can’t be framed in old 20th century terms, and that is why both dinosaur parties are of no use. The Tories still function as a bunch of self-interested crooks and asset-strippers, but Labour just look like a fat bloke with a stick trying to kill the internet. They aren’t even in this century yet.

 

[gavreid]

In fairness I don’t think it is these days. The other major cities (Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield and I assume Birmingham (never been there!)) are all vibrant and productive. The problem is the “Labour heartlands”, the working class areas that grew from mass labour such as mill work, mining, shipbuilding etc. They serve no productive purpose in the 21st century and it is hard to think of a way to bring them back into a world that will never again need that kind of job role.

At heart this is a technology and culture thing, not a location one IMO. It just impacts certain locations due to history and obsolescence. I don’t know how it can be fixed beyond accepting we live in a totally different world that will never again have full employment. My best guess is the implementation of a decent universal basic income, and then encourage individual entrepreneurism, micro-businesses etc. Also seriously fund the arts, leisure industries etc, as that is also where the future lies as more and more people have more free time. Where we are just can’t be framed in old 20th century terms, and that is why both dinosaur parties are of no use. The Tories still function as a bunch of self-interested crooks and asset-strippers, but Labour just look like a fat bloke with a stick trying to kill the internet. They aren’t even in this century yet.

To go further, a lot of the regeneration that has take place is retail based, either shopping complexes or warehousing and the like. With the big shift towards online those communities are facing a second collapse in a generation.

 

[Woodface]

Some cities just adapt better, Newcastle vs Sunderland for example. I do think technology & remote working offers hope to areas with potential to gentrify. Quite a lot of options on the NE coast.

 

[Seanm]

I think the first thing any party needs to do to wrestle power from the Conservatives is to stop London being the be all and end all. Investment in the regions and devolution would really help swing people towards whichever party can do it.

That’s partly why the Community Organising Units seemed like such a no-brainer, as do the kind of community wealth building initiatives developed in Preston and elsewhere. Labour did actually have lots in their recent manifestos on shifting power - economic and constitutional - out of London, but it just looks like pie in the sky if there's no bottom-up work being done to demonstrate what it would all mean in practice, and without the kind of activist density that London has it needs to be a full-time job.

Since they're in government, with a massive majority, and limitless room to roam politically, the Tories could actually do this. But it would be a massive undertaking: huge investment and a real redistribution of power, otherwise it will just be seen as gestural and top down, as New Labour's efforts in this direction were. I don't see why they'd bother: I think they'll be golden with culture war and voter suppression. Might be different if Labour could put together a convincing offer here.

 

[Seanm]

In fairness I don’t think it is these days. The other major cities (Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield and I assume Birmingham (never been there!)) are all vibrant and productive. The problem is the “Labour heartlands”, the working class areas that grew from mass labour such as mill work, mining, shipbuilding etc. They serve no productive purpose in the 21st century and it is hard to think of a way to bring them back into a world that will never again need that kind of job role.

At heart this is a technology and culture thing, not a location one IMO. It just impacts certain locations due to history and obsolescence. I don’t know how it can be fixed beyond accepting we live in a totally different world that will never again have full employment. My best guess is the implementation of a decent universal basic income, and then encourage individual entrepreneurism, micro-businesses etc. Also seriously fund the arts, leisure industries etc, as that is also where the future lies as more and more people have more free time. Where we are just can’t be framed in old 20th century terms, and that is why both dinosaur parties are of no use. The Tories still function as a bunch of self-interested crooks and asset-strippers, but Labour just look like a fat bloke with a stick trying to kill the internet. They aren’t even in this century yet.

Labour actually did lots of work on this. It's all there for when the party is ready for it again. Likely that the Tories will get to the eye-catching stuff first of course.