John Coltrane - Meditations
- Thread starter Gerard124
- Start date
Tony L
Administrator
Not the best introduction to Coltrane, you kind of need to work up to late period stuff like this. IIRC the start is the most ‘face-melting’ bit, it gets more tranquil and meditative as it progresses. Stick with it! Took me years to be honest. FWIW I found the even more out-there but more sparse stuff like Interstellar Space more easy to relate to initially. It was only after really getting to love that one that Meditations made sense.
Space is the Place
pfm Member
Gerard, this is a challenging album for sure, i suppose it's what great musicians do (and they're aren't many greater than Coltrane!), they are always searching, exploring, abandoning what they did last to get to the next level. I guess the pure spiritual in Coltranes case, i'm not sure how much Albert Alyer influence there is on this record.
I think Coltrane said this album was an extension of A love Supreme, more spiritual, more connected.
For me this type of music comes from somewhere else, the call and response, music that makes the hairs on you arms stand up, when i hear music so primal it always reminds me of this i know it's a different world (Papua New Guinea) it's universal, human.
The Gil Scott Heron poem (which actually inspired by A Love Supreme) ...And Then He Wrote Meditations... describes what Coltrane was doing better than i can...
Straddling the darkness
He controlled the bucking thrusts and rode on
Into the emptiness that, he alone, would try to fill
Into the middle to try and be the bridge between spirits
"Expand," he screamed
The vacuum was aroused, suspicious, and alarmed
Who would dare? But on he rode
The tailwinds were from Africa
The bass and force were timeless rhythms
That restructured beat and consciousness
The chasms between seconds
Were made real and whole
New targets imploded within the void
Holes were punctured through ebony nothingness
And resistance increased, walls appeared
Rise up train, the answer is just beyond the next wall
Rise up train, the answer is just
Beyond the next wall
The train rose up
No one had ever so thoroughly defied the night
The crosswinds were from the east
Lyrical assessments, harmonic sirens that called gut-deep
Into never-seen, yet half-remembered desires
Is there a reincarnation, oh Lord?
Do I recognize a part of me that is dying
In the crevices of all these bleak skulls
Lying conception-less here?
Non-existence attacked the man
"Go back, intruder! You are not welcome here
We have no need for your emotion here
We have no emotion here"
But obscurity was losing its grip
The inky blackness gave way to grey shadows
The canvas of limbo became a veil
Porous and smoking from the heat
As rays of light touched upon never illuminated concern
The screams grew louder
The once placid nightmare of soundlessness was crumbling
Giving way to cries, "Go back! Go back! Go back!"
And screams of pain and anger
In this the place you seek, black traveler, he was asked
In this place we will tear the flesh from your body
Here we will gladly crush your skull
And pour acid on your exposed and rotting brain
But we never let you die
We hold you here alone and worst of all
Aware of all that we do to you
We hold you captive here in Hell
"But come," said the wind
The threats were not the only sound
The faint throb of warmth that lay vibrating
Just beyond the horror of Hell
Was a magnet pulling and reaching, drawing him on
"Come. Hell is past for you," said the wind
And the rhythms of heaven absorbed him
A Love Supreme
A Love Supreme
A Love Supreme
A Love Supreme
And then John Coltrane wrote Meditations
I think Coltrane said this album was an extension of A love Supreme, more spiritual, more connected.
For me this type of music comes from somewhere else, the call and response, music that makes the hairs on you arms stand up, when i hear music so primal it always reminds me of this i know it's a different world (Papua New Guinea) it's universal, human.
The Gil Scott Heron poem (which actually inspired by A Love Supreme) ...And Then He Wrote Meditations... describes what Coltrane was doing better than i can...
Straddling the darkness
He controlled the bucking thrusts and rode on
Into the emptiness that, he alone, would try to fill
Into the middle to try and be the bridge between spirits
"Expand," he screamed
The vacuum was aroused, suspicious, and alarmed
Who would dare? But on he rode
The tailwinds were from Africa
The bass and force were timeless rhythms
That restructured beat and consciousness
The chasms between seconds
Were made real and whole
New targets imploded within the void
Holes were punctured through ebony nothingness
And resistance increased, walls appeared
Rise up train, the answer is just beyond the next wall
Rise up train, the answer is just
Beyond the next wall
The train rose up
No one had ever so thoroughly defied the night
The crosswinds were from the east
Lyrical assessments, harmonic sirens that called gut-deep
Into never-seen, yet half-remembered desires
Is there a reincarnation, oh Lord?
Do I recognize a part of me that is dying
In the crevices of all these bleak skulls
Lying conception-less here?
Non-existence attacked the man
"Go back, intruder! You are not welcome here
We have no need for your emotion here
We have no emotion here"
But obscurity was losing its grip
The inky blackness gave way to grey shadows
The canvas of limbo became a veil
Porous and smoking from the heat
As rays of light touched upon never illuminated concern
The screams grew louder
The once placid nightmare of soundlessness was crumbling
Giving way to cries, "Go back! Go back! Go back!"
And screams of pain and anger
In this the place you seek, black traveler, he was asked
In this place we will tear the flesh from your body
Here we will gladly crush your skull
And pour acid on your exposed and rotting brain
But we never let you die
We hold you here alone and worst of all
Aware of all that we do to you
We hold you captive here in Hell
"But come," said the wind
The threats were not the only sound
The faint throb of warmth that lay vibrating
Just beyond the horror of Hell
Was a magnet pulling and reaching, drawing him on
"Come. Hell is past for you," said the wind
And the rhythms of heaven absorbed him
A Love Supreme
A Love Supreme
A Love Supreme
A Love Supreme
And then John Coltrane wrote Meditations
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
I doubt it, but you do need to acclimatise. Perhaps counter-intuitively, it takes work. There’s still some stuff I find really difficult (Derek Bailey) but now, when I’m in the right mood (and you do have to be attuned) a bit of Eric Dolphy, Ornette Coleman, Bela Bartok, Beefheart’s Trout Mask Replica and some of the more ‘out there’ Herbie Hancock really hits the spot.
I found it really helps to do a bit of research into the theory, the larger social and artistic movements they were (or were not) part of, what they were developing and/ or reacting against etc. to gain a bit more insight into, I agree, what can seem a really stressed out cacophony.
herb
brain's right hemisphere
Coltrane recorded a simplified basis of Meditations a few months earlier. Called First Meditations it features his quartet
John Coltrane - First Meditations (1977) [Full Album] - YouTube
This may not help
John Coltrane - First Meditations (1977) [Full Album] - YouTube
This may not help
To be honest I just don't think it's for me at all, no matter how much work I put into it.
Tony L
Administrator
I thought that, but it crept up on me. My copy is a CD I’ve owned since the late ‘90s. When I first heard it I felt it was a recording of several people inflating several cats/a fire in a pet shop. At the time I had Blue Train and A Love Supreme, plus some of the stuff he’d done with Miles (KoB etc). Meditations really isn’t the album to drop in at that point. Not even as someone who does like pretty challenging music (e.g. my first Mingus album was Black Saint and I loved it right from the off). Now 25 years on and a far better understanding of Coltrane’s journey Meditations makes a lot more sense. It will never be easy listening, but it absolutely does not intend to be. I enjoy it and will dig it out for a spin sometime.
Blue Train is a classic Blue Note album, totally accessible and groovy. You will absolutely love it, guaranteed. From there I’d try ‘Coltrane’ (his first Impulse album), Crescent, Afro Brass, and obviously A Love Supreme. If you find yourself going gradually out of your comfort zone with ALS flip direction for a while and head back into the Prestige stuff that pre-dates Blue Train. It is superb stuff, as is the Atlantic era which came a year or so later. Also all his work with Miles is exceptionally good and accessible. The correct answer with Coltrane is ‘everything’, but don’t force yourself to get there immediately. Let it creep up on you. I suspect there is a strong argument to explore it in the order he made it; Riverside, Blue Note, Atlantic, Impulse. That way a clear journey and trajectory becomes obvious. He covered a huge amount of ground in a very short life.
PS Don’t buy Ascension yet!
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I think that's fair enough tbh. It would be a dull world if we all got our kicks from the same things.
I dug it out again this afternoon as I hadn't listened to it for yonks. I didn't think it sounded that crazy but it obviously depends on your reference points and I've listened to quite a lot of free jazz / free improvisation in the past decade. It must have been quite shocking in 1966.
Blue Train is a good bet. Giant Steps in an important record. And of course A Love Supreme. I also have a soft spot for the ballads album he made with Johnny Hartman which is just gorgeous. I'll have that version of Lush Life at my funeral please!
Tony L
Administrator
I’ve just stuck it on now and same for me too. I remember how I thought it sounded and how I hear it now and they couldn’t be more different. There is still a lot of free jazz I feel is utter bollocks, but Coltrane I get and hugely respect. There is an authenticity and integrity to it somehow. I instinctively believe him even when he confuses me. A lot of the much later ‘me too’ free stuff that followed in the decades after his death still just sounds like taking the piss to me.
PS Really enjoying Meditations. Probably the first time out on the Lockwoods and it sounds great. The scale and heft really helps sort it out.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
The influence of Coltrane was certainly immense and led to there being rather a lot of loud tenor players going full blast for hours.... even now.
But it's a broad church from Sun Ra to Roscoe Mitchell to Don Cherry's proto world music to free improvising Europeans like Evan Parker and Peter Brotzmann.
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
Whilst I listen to a bit of jazz, I've struggled to 'get' free jazz. I can listen to "Machine Gun" and like the ECM album from the Music Improvisation Company and enjoy them (in the right mood, obvs), but I've never found anything else that has that "oh yeah, I get that" hook that is my 'in' to it. I'm sure it's a case of looking. Although I have never liked "Om", is there anything else in Coltrane's catalogue a place to start, or would I be better going elsewhere first?
Seanm
pfm Member
Maybe Expression? Lots of lyrical moments there, less full-on than some of his free stuff.
If not Coltrane how about Ornette? Lots of actual tunes there, sort of. I guess it’s hard to know what your “in” will be until you find it. Ornette was one of mine (Science Fiction), because of the tunes I think, Albert Ayler another, for the pathos.
Tony L
Administrator
Try Interstellar Space. It is very late-period and quite stripped back and minimal, just Coltrane and Rashied Ali on drums/percussion. Totally free and plenty of space to breathe. The drumming is incomprehensible. I have absolutely no idea what he is doing, but it is quite brilliant and somehow sounds so right despite having no discernible downbeat to my ears. I find this one fascinating as it really is free to my mind. Most stuff that gets lumped in the category always returns to a structure, time signature, melody or whatever. As an example Ornette Coleman’s Free Jazz goes through a series of experiments and returns to quite traditional even New Orleans forms. Meditations has clearly melodic themes and conventionally ‘foot tapping’ rhythms at times and is a very emotional piece. Ascension is furious and attacking, though again it is not without structure and form if you look hard enough for it. Interstellar Space however takes it somewhere else, but for some reason I’ve always found it accessible despite genuinely not having the slightest clue what they are doing. Like all Coltrane it has that undeniable conviction and integrity to it.
PS FWIW I like Om. I’ve only very recently got to know it, though the out of tune hippie mumble-chanting at the start is something we maybe shouldn’t discuss. It all heads off somewhere interesting very soon after though. IIRC he was off his box on acid for this one (which was not typical behaviour at all).
I would say it’s not worth you bothering with this.
There’s so much music out there you’ll never listen to it all in your lifetime, why spend time listening to something you don’t like?
Time spent trying to like this music, means you’ll miss out on listening to other stuff which you may prefer. It’ll still be there in future if you fancy giving it another try later on.
Same goes for all of the ‘must see’ films and ‘must read’ books.
regards
Kevin
mjw
pfm Member
I have much of Coltrane’s output but have never managed to fathom what’s going on in the Olantuji Concert.
sideshowbob
Champagne fascia aficionado
Meditations is a pretty difficult album because it's so transitional, I think. 2 members of the band don't like the music (Jones and Tyner are both on their way out at this point) and Trane is only just starting to explore his new thinking. The record feels a bit like a struggle that doesn't resolve itself properly. The recordings he made subsequently (some not released until after his death) are often more coherent and confident. I like Meditations but it is frustrating at times.
Tony L
Administrator
Ascension even more so. IIRC after the second take (the one used for most copies) Jones threw his snare drum at the wall so he couldn’t be asked to do a third take!