GaryT
pfm Member
Tones, I was taught CSE Irish history (from the plantation to the civil war) in a state school in Belfast in the 70's (I left in 1977), so it was possible if the school and/or history department wanted to teach it.
Ireland; the centenary of Partition
- Thread starter tones
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-alan-
pfm Member
I was similarly taught a selection or perhaps that should be 'carefully curated' subset of Irish History in a State school in the 70s there too. To be fair, given that the school was nominally 'mixed' (when I say nominally, typically 3-4 Catholic kids out of a total of 150 in a year), there was no bias in the limited piece they did teach. They might have gone a bit overboard on the volume of stuff they taught on the Reformation, and Martin Luther and the likes tho - but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
We did have a couple of anti-evolution types mind you, and one History teacher who took great umbrage at the fact that all us Catholic kids if uncorrected used to spell Protestant with a 'D'in the middle. "Dont be silly, how can you spell it like that, you don't talk about 'Prods' do you ?" Oh I can assure you we do sir..
We did have a couple of anti-evolution types mind you, and one History teacher who took great umbrage at the fact that all us Catholic kids if uncorrected used to spell Protestant with a 'D'in the middle. "Dont be silly, how can you spell it like that, you don't talk about 'Prods' do you ?" Oh I can assure you we do sir..
tones
Tones deaf
Interesting - I left school for Queen's in 1965, and of course, courtesy of the limited scope of 'A'-Levels then offered by the Model (as a secondary school, it wasn't supposed to offer any at all), my history teaching stopped in 1962.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
I have a vague memory of learning that the origin of the Irish peoples being that of former Welshmen being shunted west by, presumably, the invasion of the Celts (pre Roman?). Maybe the truth is far less specific. I am, however, surprised that 400 + plus years of Protestant rule, in effect, hadn't seemed to affect Catholicism across the majority of the indigenous population. ' Let sleeping dogs lie' secularism, maybe?
tones
Tones deaf
I think that Ireland was subject to an invasion by Celtic tribes from Europe, much the same as was the case for England.
Protestant rule was just that, rule. There was never any attempt to convert the natives from Catholicism - in the north, the Plantation was meant simply to displace them completely. And the Catholic Church was very much on the side of the people, not the ruling class, hence the strong influence the Church had on Irish thinking and policy well into the 20th century. Back when there was a Soviet Union, Radio Moscow famously described Ireland as a "priest-ridden theocracy". There were times when that wasn't far wrong - the first Irish attempt at making divorce legal was defeated, when it was preached against from every pulpit in the land the week before the referendum.
Darren L
Egalitarian
What teacher was that, I went to the Rainey, one of my classmate's dad was killed in an Car bomb, he was an RUC officer.
Although the reasons given above are correct, the kids rioting don't need much of an excuse and will jump at the chance to have a go at the Police.
Basically they're what is commonly known as ' wee bastards ' over here, frequently called 'chavs' in England, they live in areas of high unemployment and social deprivation and in general have nothing much to do but get into trouble, normally drugs and joyriding.
So rioting and burning other peoples property and seeing if you can hit a peeler is a great night out.
@Mike Reed The Irish most likely had the same general origins as the Welsh - the Celtic peoples of central Europe - but that common origin was long enough ago that the Irish and Welsh languages diverged away from being mutually intelligible before they even reached these islands (I learned Irish at school, and we received Welsh TV for years, but I could not make out even one word of Welsh). The Irish language is the longer established (arriving in Ireland around 500 BC from western France); Welsh is believed to be the last survivor of the pre-Roman British languages, which arrived in Britain from the Eastern side of the Celtic lands in around 400 BC.
Incidentally, the English names "Welsh" and "Wales" both come from the Saxon word for "foreigner", which I always thought was a bit rich of them; the Irish word for Welsh, Breatnais, relates to the word for "British", and so still records who was there first. (In Irish, Wales is an Bhreatain Bheag, or literally "Little Britain").
For a long time, it was true that the Republic was a place where you paid high taxes and got no public services in return for them, while Northern Ireland provided a lot for a little (those in other parts of the UK may be surprised to learn that NI residents do not pay Council Tax). I'm not surprised that people still think that, because everything that has happened to change this situation is fairly recent: a revolution in the Irish economy from the early 1990s greatly increased the level of public services, but also, a later slow collapse of the value of Sterling has effectively reversed the economic spending power on either side of the border. Consumer prices have risen by 12% since 2011 in the UK, but by only 4.8% in the Republic, all while wage growth in the Republic has been higher than in Northern Ireland. For those who grew up with the mental formula of "1 Sterling = 1.25 Punt", it comes as a very big surprise to learn that its equivalent today is "1 Sterling = 0.90 Punt" (it was much worse, but Sterling has picked up a little in the last 3-4 months).
The cost of living here isn't just tax, though, it's lots of little things that sneak up on you, lihealth insurance, medicines, motoring charges, childcare, financial services, bin collection, dentistry, etc. On the other side of that, I do think we make a much bigger effort toward addressing inequality of income than the UK does, but that's probably down to a long history of electing centrist or centre-left coalition governments.
Incidentally, the English names "Welsh" and "Wales" both come from the Saxon word for "foreigner", which I always thought was a bit rich of them; the Irish word for Welsh, Breatnais, relates to the word for "British", and so still records who was there first. (In Irish, Wales is an Bhreatain Bheag, or literally "Little Britain").
I wasn't necessarily saying it was true, just that it is commonly believed.
For a long time, it was true that the Republic was a place where you paid high taxes and got no public services in return for them, while Northern Ireland provided a lot for a little (those in other parts of the UK may be surprised to learn that NI residents do not pay Council Tax). I'm not surprised that people still think that, because everything that has happened to change this situation is fairly recent: a revolution in the Irish economy from the early 1990s greatly increased the level of public services, but also, a later slow collapse of the value of Sterling has effectively reversed the economic spending power on either side of the border. Consumer prices have risen by 12% since 2011 in the UK, but by only 4.8% in the Republic, all while wage growth in the Republic has been higher than in Northern Ireland. For those who grew up with the mental formula of "1 Sterling = 1.25 Punt", it comes as a very big surprise to learn that its equivalent today is "1 Sterling = 0.90 Punt" (it was much worse, but Sterling has picked up a little in the last 3-4 months).
The cost of living here isn't just tax, though, it's lots of little things that sneak up on you, lihealth insurance, medicines, motoring charges, childcare, financial services, bin collection, dentistry, etc. On the other side of that, I do think we make a much bigger effort toward addressing inequality of income than the UK does, but that's probably down to a long history of electing centrist or centre-left coalition governments.
tones
Tones deaf
I though that there were (at least) two quite separate families of Celtic languages. There's the Gaelic family, to which belong the languages of Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man, and the Brythonic family, to which Welsh belongs, along with Breton in Brittany, and the old Cornish language, essentially extinct, but I believe people are trying to resurrect it.
tones
Tones deaf
I mentioned previously the commanding position of the Catholic Church in Ireland and how it could distort policy - here's an interesting example from today's Irish Times:
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/...published-its-most-famous-editorial-1.4535072
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/...published-its-most-famous-editorial-1.4535072
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Useful linguistic history there. Isn't 'Irish' called Erse (or is that name given to other aspects?). No wonder the Welsh are known for their vocal expertise (in music) as the accent is like a musical rollercoaster, rising in the hills and falling in the valleys. Call it a cadence; almost a lilt)
Wasn't Boudicca Celtic? She was at the same time as the Roman conquest, but covered the southern part of East Anglia. A splinter group speaking Estuary Celtic, maybe?
My very amateur interest in linguistics agrees. The "Insular Celtic" languages are split into two families "Q-Celtic" and "P-Celtic". Q is Irish and other "Gaelic" languages; P is Brythonic, of which Welsh and Breton are the main survivors.
The split seems to have happened on the Continent before the Celtic peoples arrived on these two islands: Ireland was settled from the Western part of Europe, and so got the Q variant (so that, for example, in Irish names, "son of" = mac), while Britain was settled by Celts from further East, who spoke the P variant (e.g., in Welsh names, "son of" = map / ap). To muddy the waters somewhat, the "British" speakers then later extended into north-eastern France to bring their language to what is now Brittany (which may explain its name), while the Irish moved North-East and brought their language into what is now Scotland, displacing a previous, and different Celtic people, the Picts, about whose language we know very very little.
@Mike Reed "Erse" is a very old word, from the same roots as "Irish" - it's never used here in Ireland, and some would consider slightly "off" (around the same scale as calling the country "Éire" while speaking English). In Ireland, "Irish" is the only word used to describe the Irish language. If you say "Gaelic" here people will think you're speaking about sport (Gaelic Football), or maybe the language spoken in Scotland (although that is usually pronounced to rhyme with "gallic"); if you were to say "Erse", you would be met with anything from a confused silence or outright abuse, depending on your how your accent renders that first vowel.
tones
Tones deaf
No, it's Irish, just as the country is called Ireland, and not Éire.
Wasn't Boudicca Celtic? She was at the same time as the Roman conquest, but covered the southern part of East Anglia. A splinter group speaking Estuary Celtic, maybe?
She was queen of the Iceni, a Brythonic Celtic tribe. They were actually allied with the Romans at one point, but rebelled when the Romans started to push their ways of doing things more forcefully.
tonerei
pfm Member
Whilst I agree the points you outlined above indicate the costs and the rate wages have to rise or fall if Ireland re-united. In both countries people will just want the cream with none of the costs that will have to be incurred. That is ignoring the paramilitary issues on both sides. Everybody runs from the serious questions. Look at the Brexit thread. Virtually all the noisy type ignore NI and pretend it doesn't exist.
tones
Tones deaf
This is because both sides desperately wish it didn't!
tones
Tones deaf
Well, I'm glad we got to the bottom of that one...
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Surprise here, as 'Eire' appears on Irish stamps; also on some atlases whereas Ireland is the whole island. Very confusing, this. I take your point on 'Erse' being historic, but i thought 'Eire was, at lease formally, the country of Southern Ireland.
tones
Tones deaf
I think Éamon de Valera wanted the country to be called Éire (Irish for Ireland, hence the postage stamps*), but then Éamon lived on a slightly different planet from the rest of us and that time has long passed - the name of the state is Ireland.
*Never trust a postage stamp - Swiss ones don't say Schweiz/Suisse/Svizzera but "Helvetia", the female personification of Switzerland. I guess it saves on printing costs.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
British stamps have no identifying country of origin but we were the first. I thought 'Helvetia' was the historical name, not just a personification. I dunno; be a stamp collector all one's life and learn a basic philatelic item like that.