Ireland; the centenary of Partition

[tones]

If anyone is remotely interested and has an hour to spare, I found this talk sponsored by Queen's University to be fascinating:

The thing that really interested me was not that there was going to be Partition, but which one? It seems that it had been generally agreed back then that the two sides were so incompatible as to preclude any sort of common country, and therefore a line had to be drawn. The only question was, where? In the end, the whole thing was a desperate fudge, which, in the nature of desperate fudges, pleased nobody.

It is now 100 years since Partition, and, if anything, the two countries of Ireland have grown even further apart. It makes me wonder whether, barring some massive unforeseen change, reunification would ever be possible. Naturally, one can never say never, but...

The other day, a Catholic primary school in Glenarm up the Antrim Coast became the first in Northern Ireland to be integrated, i.e. accepting pupils other than Catholics. A lot more of this needs to happen, but at least it's a start.

 

[sean99]

Thank you for posting - I'll try to make time to watch later.
"the whole thing was a desperate fudge, which, in the nature of desperate fudges, pleased nobody." Arbitrary borders - see also Iraq, India, Africa - anywhere subject to colonial rule, really.

 

[Vinny]

anywhere subject to colonial rule, really.

It is naff all to do with colonial rule.
In the island or Ireland things were/are somewhat different as a great deal of the protestant community are there because the English encoraged protestant Scots to migrate there.
India - the real hassle that everyone knows about is Kashmir and that mess is down to what Kashmir itself "wanted" to do at the time of independance. You also have the, thankfully short-lived but nonetheless bloody, mess of E and W Pakistan, which was dragged out because W Pakistan wanted to rule over the "lesser" Bangladeshis.
Across the world, colonial rule welded lots of states, kingdoms, tribes and the like into totally artificial parcels of land that only colonisation held together. Remove the colonial power and chaos frequently happens/happened because the locals hate each other, and very often always had/have. the exception their being Belgian rule of the Congo, where they introduced government and rule that seperated the tribes like never before.
Take a look at the Middle East - much of the hassle is nothing to do with colonisation, although everyone and his friend setting up a Jewish state and ignoring the locals, was and remains considerable source of "friction" (and bloodshed).
Before the British occupied India, India did not exist, except as countless independantly ruled states. How was India ever going to coalesce into one country? (Although a fanatical Hindu seems hell-bent on ripping it apart at the moment.)

 

[tones]

In the island or Ireland things were/are somewhat different as a great deal of the protestant community are there because the English encoraged protestant Scots to migrate there.

That's not quite correct, Vinny. James I of England, who started the Plantation after the romantically-named "Flight of the Earls", really wanted members of the "Established Faith". What he really didn't want were Calvinist, very non-Established Scots, but they came anyway. As a result, the Presbyterians were at one point as persecuted as the local Catholics. Boatloads of settlers would leave Donaghadee every Sunday for Portpatrick in Scotland, where they could legally hear a Church of Scotland sermon (there was also a virtual turnaround marriage service!). Should you be interested in the history, this is THE book:

https://www.booksireland.org.uk/store/all-departments/the-plantation-of-ulster

 

[Vinny]

That's not quite correct, Vinny. James I of England, who started the Plantation after the romantically-named "Flight of the Earls", really wanted members of the "Established Faith". What he really didn't want were Calvinist, very non-Established Scots, but they came anyway. As a result, the Presbyterians were at one point as persecuted as the local Catholics. Boatloads of settlers would leave Donaghadee every Sunday for Portpatrick in Scotland, where they could legally hear a Church of Scotland sermon (there was also a virtual turnaround marriage service!). Should you be interested in the history, this is THE book:

https://www.booksireland.org.uk/store/all-departments/the-plantation-of-ulster

Thanks for the recommended reading, seriously.

That said, what you have said could only have ever come from an Irish native, a small section of Scots, or quite a few Americans - people absolutely entwined with Christian religion.
Merely a comment of fact - it would take the vast majority of people in the UK, outside the island of Ireland, quite some time to decode what you have posted. I just about managed what I reckon is a gist after 3-4 readings. If the gist is right, then Scots migrating to Ireland are the major root of the problem today - introducing protestantism in the very broadest sense.
The same thinking and involvement are what drives Sunnis, from Shia, from Sufis, and all the rest (please, no mention of Ghadianis), and seperates all the other sects/denominations around the world. All over something that is in the mind, is not real, at least in this world.

 

[twotone]

Thanks for the recommended reading, seriously.

That said, what you have said could only have ever come from an Irish native, a small section of Scots, or quite a few Americans - people absolutely entwined with Christian religion.
Merely a comment of fact - it would take the vast majority of people in the UK, outside the island of Ireland, quite some time to decode what you have posted. I just about managed what I reckon is a gist after 3-4 readings. If the gist is right, then Scots migrating to Ireland are the major root of the problem today - introducing protestantism in the very broadest sense.
The same thinking and involvement are what drives Sunnis, from Shia, from Sufis, and all the rest (please, no mention of Ghadianis), and seperates all the other sects/denominations around the world. All over something that is in the mind, is not real, at least in this world.

No the major root of the problem in Ireland was England and for 800 years.

Like everywhere else in the world the English have fecked up countless countries and millions of people including the Scots.

 

[martin clark]

@tones

First thank-you. I'll make time to watch that.
And secondly - thank-you, because on this and many-previous related subject postings, I've an immense respect for the deeply-informed & nuanced points you make. As someone born in England where the depth and gravity of such are rarely reflected in basic historical education, let alone public debate, I could not welcome such more. I've already got one or two of your previous book recommendations on slow digestion. Inc the above.

and - Happy Easter.

 

[tones]

If the gist is right, then Scots migrating to Ireland are the major root of the problem today - introducing protestantism in the very broadest sense.

Aha, but this a case of what goes around comes around! Just as a Germanic tribe called the Franks invaded post-Roman Gaul and gave the country its name, so a Northern Irish Irish tribe called the Scots moved into the home of the Picts and - guess what?

 

[Sloop John B]

Thanks for posting, I’ll certainly have a look at it over the weekend.

.sjb

 

[tones]

@tones

First thank-you. I'll make time to watch that.
And secondly - thank-you, because on this and many-previous related subject postings, I've an immense respect for the deeply-informed & nuanced points you make. As someone born in England where the depth and gravity of such are rarely reflected in basic historical education, let alone public debate, I could not welcome such more. I've already got one or two of your previous book recommendations on slow digestion. Inc the above.

and - Happy Easter.

Thank you - and to you and yours.

 

[Vinny]

No the major root of the problem in Ireland was England and for 800 years.

Like everywhere else in the world the English have fecked up countless countries and millions of people including the Scots.

Thanks for the very indepth analysis.

 

[TheDecameron]

No the major root of the problem in Ireland was England and for 800 years.

Like everywhere else in the world the English have fecked up countless countries and millions of people including the Scots.

Quite, it’s as if Elizabeth I declared no interest and Cromwell had never even heard of Ireland.

 

[twotone]

Thanks for the very indepth analysis.

Well it's not difficult is it?

Cromwell absolutely destroyed Ireland and the English gentry/establishment starved millions of Irish people to death during the famine but according to you Scots are to blame for all of Ireland's ills for the past 800 years.

Go and look up The United Irishmen, Wolfe Tone and countless other examples.

The clue is those people were protestants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfe_Tone

 

[twotone]

Quite, it’s as if Elizabeth I declared no interest and Cromwell had never even heard of Ireland.

Beathtaking ignorance of some folk mate.

 

[droodzilla]

He sounded so sure of himself too.

 

[Mike Reed]

Another dimension here. All of Britain was, for some hundreds of years, Protestant. Ireland was Catholic with the exception of those immigrants located in Ulster from about the 17th century and the (frequently absent) English estate owners. I'd say that the religious aspect didn't help Ireland's historical case at all, just as religious has caused and is still causing animosity and enmity today.

If it wasn't for the 1840s famine and later events, I doubt that the American twang would be the same today (just an afterthought ! )

If Irishmen could consider themselves Irish rather than Protestant or Catholic there might be a chance of full integration, both economically and politically. There again, pigs could fly! Far too simplistic, so off to bed. Very interesting history, outcomes and future potential though.

 

[twotone]

Another dimension here. All of Britain was, for some hundreds of years, Protestant. Ireland was Catholic with the exception of those immigrants located in Ulster from about the 17th century and the (frequently absent) English estate owners. I'd say that the religious aspect didn't help Ireland's historical case at all, just as religious has caused and is still causing animosity and enmity today.

If it wasn't for the 1840s famine and later events, I doubt that the American twang would be the same today (just an afterthought ! )

If Irishmen could consider themselves Irish rather than Protestant or Catholic there might be a chance of full integration, both economically and politically. There again, pigs could fly! Far too simplistic, so off to bed. Very interesting history, outcomes and future potential though.

God another one.

All of Britain wasn't protestant for hundreds of years.

Do English schools not teach history or are some English people just pig ignorant?

 

[davidsrsb]

They did not in my day. History avoided all the controversial bits and focused on Elizabeth defending England from the Armada and similar

 

[Darren L]

They did not in my day. History avoided all the controversial bits and focused on Elizabeth defending England from the Armada and similar

That's just it in a nutshell, I can remember my History teacher telling us that in order to really understand History we would have to learn History from other nations point of view, his example being that Spanish children would not be taught how great a victory the Spanish Armada was.

There's no doubt in my mind as to who the 'baddies' were/are during England's occupation of Ireland, the plantation of Ulster, the starvation of nation and the partition of Ireland.

Though now it's a very complex situation with Religion intwined with politics and nationalism ( on both sides) and not helped by the ignorance, miseducation and tribalism of a thankfully lessening percentage of the population of NI.

 

[Mike Reed]

All of Britain wasn't protestant for hundreds of years.

What was, then, Twotone? Discount the odd Catholics dotted around. Scotland, England and Wales had variations of Protestant religions or have I been under a misapprehension all my life?

Do English schools not teach history or are some English people just pig ignorant?

I'm willing to be corrected/re-educated, but I taught history at odd times; I won't count my miserable O level in it; too long ago. Your 'tone' (!) is very dismissive and sanctimonious here, so I guess England and Wales must have had a majority other religion from the early 16th century; Scotland likewise from the early 18th (as Britain).