Incident in london

[MikeMA]

1. The *effects* of the man's actions were good.

2. The underlying intention is less clear. Was he driven by a desire for "aggro" or by a genuine desire to protect other people?

How one judges this specific action will be coloured by whether one is a utilitarian (1) or a Kantian (2).

Whether he is a *hero* or not depends (arguably) on whether he consistently risks his own well-being to protect other people (3 = virtue ethics).

I knew studying philosophy would come in handy one day!

I had to laugh when I read this. You should get a job teaching ethics to soldiers. They are exercised constantly by the Kantian versus Utlitarian approach to conflict resolution. They'd love you.

 

[maxflinn]

No it wasn't - that's where we disagree.

If his motivation was to "'ave a bit" after drinking and he just wanted to kick off with some Muslims then he was satisfying his inherent need, his desire, just as he was in the video. There's **** all heroic about that IMO.

Maybe he was just being a kind hearted protector of the public and the alcohol had not impacted his thinking in the way (even he admits) it would usually.

Maybe.

On the balance of probabilities?

Everybody's primary motivation is to live. To avoid death. It supersedes everything.

I don't think who he is, how he sees Muslims, how he feels about them (assuming he feels anything specific beyond that which he would for any other religious/ethnic group) or whether or not he likes a bit of a scrap from time to time is relevant at all in determining whether his actions were heroic.

He was faced with a group of crazed killers. Out of the blue they turned up hacking and stabbing innocent people while wearing what anyone would have thought were real suicide vests.

He could have ran away. He chose to try to fight them, to hamper them in their attempts to harm others.

This could have cost him his life, and may have saved the lives of others.

It was therefore a heroic act of bravery, IMO.

I just cannot see it as anything else given the circumstances.

 

[Lee T]

No it wasn't - that's where we disagree.

If his motivation was to "'ave a bit" after drinking and he just wanted to kick off with some Muslims then he was satisfying his inherent need, his desire, just as he was in the video. There's **** all heroic about that IMO.

Maybe he was just being a kind hearted protector of the public and the alcohol had not impacted his thinking in the way (even he admits) it would usually.

Maybe.

On the balance of probabilities?

How long would you say he had to decide, I would imagine a few seconds, usually in such situations, gut instinct kicks in, fight or flight, nothing to do with personal vendetta, I doubt the guy thought, here's a bunch of Muslims, let's get some.

If you had carried out this act, would you agree it was heroic.

A heroic act is putting your life at risk to save others regardless of background, morels or upbringing, the act itself is what matters, not the person.

For example, you have no idea how the firefighters think, their morals, their upbringing or whatever, who saved lives from the recent tragedy, would you agree they are heroic for saving lives that would certainly have perished if they had not intervened.

 

[merlin]

I've seen people Max, who after four pints, would take on anyone anytime anywhere. It's about gratification. Looking at the evidence, I would suggest there was part of him that wanted to take them on. The reasons are evident. I will not defend or condone racist thuggery simply because on this occasion it proved to be beneficial.

 

[Lee T]

I would imagine you have never served in the armed forces Merlin.

 

[Mikeandvan]

hyacnith by Mike Van, on Flickr

 

[maxflinn]

I've seen people Max, who after four pints, would take on anyone anytime anywhere. It's about gratification. Looking at the evidence, I would suggest there was part of him that wanted to take them on. The reasons are evident. I will not defend or condone racist thuggery simply because on this occasion it proved to be beneficial.

Merlin I'm sure we all know people who get a few drinks down them and become aggressive, but these people usually either give someone else a few slaps, or get a few, or both. The odd time maybe they or their foe might be unlucky enough to get a bang of a bottle or something, but death is most unlikely.

This chap faced death, not a few slaps. He would not have looked at three maniacs with suicide vests knifing all around them in the same way he would a few regular people in a bar or a few Muslims outside a mosque, the type of which - were he that way inclined - would normally present him with an opportunity to have a scrap, that he'd most likely walk away from.

He must have known that these people could have taken his life, but he fought them anyway and tried to stop them harming others.

This was bravery, and I don't know how you can frame it as some kind of anti-social racist getting lucky and finding a few Muslims he could battle for gratification.

 

[merlin]

He must have known that these people could have taken his life,

Must he?

That's where we differ. That's the root of it.

 

[maxflinn]

Must he?

That's where we differ. That's the root of it.

You think he thought that three suicide vest-toting nutters stabbing half of London while shouting Allah Akbar weren't a risk to his life?

 

[DonQuixote99]

Heros worthily overcome fear for their own safety to bravely do MORE than their duty for others.

Persons without fear due to alcohol intoxication don't qualify.

Persons with great anger and/or aggression in their personality, for whatever reason, don't qualify. A true hero is of good character.

No one here has any solid evidence of the state of mind of the hero candidate in this case (except much in hindsight). What is clear is that in the wake of news of distressing attacks, lots of folks were ready to take a hero to their hearts, and much resented any suggestion that the candidate did not qualify.

Plus several have their own aggro issues, and find a forum target handy.

 

[merlin]

Firstly I wasn't aware that they were wearing suicide vests.

Secondly you are assuming that any rational thought was possible on four pints once the red mist descended. I'm not prepared to make that assumption - based on the evidence of his character as displayed in the video.

 

[blossomchris]

Firstly I wasn't aware that they were wearing suicide vests.

Secondly you are assuming that any rational thought was possible on four pints once the red mist descended. I'm not prepared to make that assumption - based on the evidence of his character as displayed in the video.

Merlin you are right some of the time, not this time.

No disgrace, yes, in seeing perhaps you are being over judgemental.

A few times in the past I have had assistance from undesirables and been more than grateful.


Bloss

 

[maxflinn]

Firstly I wasn't aware that they were wearing suicide vests.

Fakes, but he couldn't have known that.

Secondly you are assuming that any rational thought was possible on four pints once the red mist descended. I'm not prepared to make that assumption - based on the evidence of his character as displayed in the video.

I think I've made my views clear.

 

[merlin]

Same. It's only a matter of opinion anyway and our opinions differ.

I won't be changing mine though.

 

[maxflinn]

Same. It's only a matter of opinion anyway and our opinions differ.

True.

I won't be changing mine though.

I know

 

[Lee T]

This was bravery, and I don't know how you can frame it as some kind of anti-social racist getting lucky and finding a few Muslims he could battle for gratification.

Heard lot's about the guy who carried out this act, what does Merlin think about the scum who were taking lives, where does he stand regarding their motivation, their reasoning for this attack.

Ironically, scum who use terror to act out their personal judgement on ethnic groups are the most cowardly people I have ever had the misfortune of meeting.

 

[Lee T]

Must he?

That's where we differ. That's the root of it.

How so

I fear you are now on the defensive Merlin,
If you were faced with these people carrying 12 inch blades, would you honestly not think you could be killed if you confronted them, come on now, thought this was an intelligent site.

 

[merlin]

"Lippy Pisshead"

 

[maxflinn]

based on the evidence of his character as displayed in the video.

Merlin, I have only just realised what video you were referring to

I'm presuming it's this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fifKYmjbVCk

I wasn't aware of it until just now.

Now I understand where you're coming from.

 

[droodzilla]

I had to laugh when I read this. You should get a job teaching ethics to soldiers. They are exercised constantly by the Kantian versus Utlitarian approach to conflict resolution. They'd love you.

Well, it was (somewhat) tongue in cheek.

Philosophy ain't much use on the frontline but it can sometimes help to clarify arguments, especially when they seem intractable or circular. In this case I think it helps explain why some (a minority) of members are reluctant to call this guy a hero, even though his actions on the night had good consequences.