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I know it’s all been said before but this is madness ….

4. @adamdea - I think we are agreeing! Much though I value extended conversations about falsifiability, how to apply Bishop Berkeley and John Locke to the issue of speaker cables, Wittgenstein on the connections between useful language and meaningful concepts and much else, it seems unlikely that this is the place for it. I have friends and whisky for that sort of thing.
Bloody hell (1) Nick, countless posts bringig up falsifiability and or Popper in opaque or doubtful circumstances. Now here you are with an open goal and you decide this is not the place for it. You do manage to surprise me.
If you regard yourself as a strong believer in the difference between evidence and impressions, and sceptical of Woo, imagine that your mum has a decent hi-fi and likes the Carpenters and Debussy a lot - but knows almost nothing of the technology. She mentions that the nice young man at the dealers has suggested she pop in to hear him compare her cheap speaker cables with a new and better product - and, well, the shop is opposite the hairdressers, and £130 doesn't sound much - oh, is that 'per metre'?
Bloody hell (2) a woman buying aftermarket speaker cables My first call would be to the Guinness Book of Records.
 
To return to the OP's original post, clearly most of us CAN hear the differences that cables make and there are obviously mechanisms at work which - shock horror - science has yet to discover. If the measurement nerds were truly scientific in their approach to audio then they would accept this.
It is 'truly scientific' to observe, measure and make conclusions about psychoacoustic phenomena, including expectation bias, visual biases, and many other phenomena associated with the aural senses.
 
Thousands believed Derek Acorah could talk to the dead until the fateful "Mary loves Dick" incident...and I'm of the opinion the more egregious transformative accessory claims merely await theirs...;-)
It's nice thought. But it's not as though no one belived in ghosts afterwards.
I do remember there being a lot of noise around mark Waldrep catching someone out cheating when demo. ing digital cables (HDMI?). probably the nearest moment.
 
Bloody hell (1) Nick, countless posts bringig up falsifiability and or Popper in opaque or doubtful circumstances. Now here you are with an open goal and you decide this is not the place for it. You do manage to surprise me.

Bloody hell (2) a woman buying aftermarket speaker cables My first call would be to the Guinness Book of Records.


1. If you insist, just a quick thought.

If we can reasonably theorise an event that would prove a statement false to a reasonable viewer, that statement is falsifiable. It is (to say the least) usually less useful to discuss/ investigate statements that are not falsifiable.

Popper was less hardline than some might expect. The famous example is "All men are mortal", but Popper pointed out that corroborating 'all men die by 150/ 250/1000' is not theoretically impossible and would corroborate the first statement. Furthermore, humans get some slack, because in actual use these phrases are all exchangeable, Statements like these are different in kind from "There is a God" for example. There is less room for useful discussion if core statements are not falsifiable and scientific examination while in that form is probably pointless.

I tried using 'faith' as a way not to do this - doesn't seem to have worked.

Imagine that I think cable A is better than B, and just will not admit it isn't even after I and 500 other people in extended sessions in 3 different rooms over a week consistently failed to tell them apart.

It could be that cable A is 0.5% 'better' than cable B and literally no-one can detect it except as part of 5 separate but additive 0.5% increases, but this is approaching clutching at straws. We don't need much delving into Popper/ Herbert Simon to see that at that point sensible people will stop trying to persuade me of anything.

'Cable X is not better than Y' may be readily falsifiable in principle, but "No two decent cables will ever sound different' is rather more greasy. If we really need a big-picture/ from-first-principles discussion, it helps to avoid effectively sliding between the two types of statement. Now read back the last 2 or 3 whole threads on (roughly) this topic...

2. Taken as you meant it!

I felt safe with my bit of that exchange. My girlfriend is not a hi-fi fan, but she auditions more ruthlessly than me, and plays clarinet & violin (listening carefully is a skill, whatever your ears). It is partly her fault that I risk outrage from LP12 owners and most Objectivists by using an HRS record 'clamp' on mine - I really don't like its look, but after hours of testing each other and others we had to admit that in my room it is just a tiny bit better.

She hears consistent differences I don't and responds accordingly. Mind you, she fits the stereotype in a key way, because she got a Nova because wanted to get away from lots of boxes. A lot of over-65s on the Naim site seem to be doing the same thing, though they may all be women for all I know.

3. 'Ghosts have no objective existence' would please Popper. However, even if it is your actual job to tell people that they don't (I had an uncle who was a priest, for example), there is only so much you can do to help people think better and it rarely helps to blame them if they seem unable. All we can really do is have enough scruples that we don't make money out of their 'faith'.

4. Any interest in my attempts at some actual hi-fi-specfic advice on 'watch out for' points or on a table of supposed upgrades?
 
See Audio DiffMaker (libinst.com) for example.

And from way back in time, Baxandall Audible amplifier distortion is not a mystery.pdf | DocDroid

And many other strands. Keith Howard wrote up some experiments and ideas for HFN some years ago. He was locking an ADC to the S/PDIF output of a CD player so aligned captures of different cables could be made with a minimum of complex DSP to diff.

FWIW I don't think there are surprising differences to find, but not finding them is always going to be unconvincing to those inclined to believe. I also don't think it matters given how much interesting stuff there is to explore.

The article was very interesting reading, the conclusion that what people hear is "mysticism" appears to be back up with his tests.
 
It is 'truly scientific' to observe, measure and make conclusions about psychoacoustic phenomena, including expectation bias, visual biases, and many other phenomena associated with the aural senses.

So we can't believe what we hear? Sorry, but the tired "expectation bias" argument won't wash with me and is an insult to the intelligence of those of us who have been into this hobby for longer than we care to remember.
 
So we can't believe what we hear? Sorry, but the tired "expectation bias" argument won't wash with me and is an insult to the intelligence of those of us who have been into this hobby for longer than we care to remember.

Don't worry @vesuvian - even among those of us who worry a lot about all those biases, there are still many who find it helpful to assess what we are hearing using our hearing equipment...
 
Did the initial assertion contain the "potentially" qualifier? Not checked, but I thought the snag was that it didn't.

Well, snags do make this world go around.

Before answering, let me ask, is it the contention of numbers of measurists that cables are categorically inudible?

Then in the interest of their science, which appears to get it wrong when it,

expects evidence before identifying phenomena;
expects data where it claims there can be no phenomena;
thus effectively prohibits phenomena;
fails to establish physical thresholds for its claims of audibility but issues categorical rulings anyway;
denies phenomena outright, even if tacitly;
rejects quite reasonable reports of audibility;
per those reports, asserts the overly-complicated charge of, in effect, mental disorder or delusion;
does not establish either evidence or threshold there too, illustrating a principle of verification variability;
thus makes categorical demands of reality;
et al

-the counter-argument doesn't need a qualifier, it just has to be seen in context. I hear change in many, many things, including represented by after-the-fact corroboration and against my own biases, and thus, the opinion is as acceptable as the original measurist claim(s). As I've also said, I don't hear things where they certainly might or probably exist and there's a universe of stuff I'll never hear. Same result regarding the argument.

Similarly, some may want a hifi that *alters* the source material to be more pleasing than a plain approach. And then fiddle to change this from item to item.

[etc, etc]

A separate issue but true, however it raises the notion of correct sound. We know there is no such thing. All systems present flawed sound and therefore all alterations to them will err on the tuning side of their final output, whether measured or heard. You include a noteworthy point here because it can and has become another part of the measurist fallacy when it goes on to, according to the list above, apply only against things deemed up to snuff or not. Transistors, tubes, digital, analog etc. It's the final effect that matters and that effect is not perfect live sound nor can it be.

Listening to kit *or* measuring it in other situations then becomes problematic as you need more non-kit info to decide what might be judged 'perfect' by the user. This is one reason I regard most 'subjective' reviews as a waste of space. But having my own experience I find some measured info - e.g. noise level or FR - can be useful as a way to help me decide oif an item might suit me.

Somehow "perfect" cropped up following the first comment, but perfection is not part of so-called subjectivist sound, which is, sound not predicated on variable interpretations of strict data. This view is a given.

The original question is simply: Given sufficient musical resolution in a system, can we observe that a commensurate resolving power exists whereby we can hear all sorts of relative effects as things in it come and go. The answer is obviously yes, and the argument then, adhering to a reasonable reading of the definition of science, is just that we should allow such effects rather than making one or more traditional measurist mistakes denying them.
 
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When a student, David Attenborough was told that continental drift was literally impossible, because there was no evidence for a mechanism that could move a continent by so much as an inch. Evidence that it did happen and models for the mechanism followed later, but just being able to propose a mechanism would have made life easier for Wegener a good deal more persuasive.

Back to cables. I am trying Witch Hat Morgana interconnect cables as I type. It has taken me a long time to try, because interconnect cables seem to me to be particularly prone to imagination and Woo (i.e. it's a prejudice), and I have never had reason to mistrust the standard Naim cables. Despite talk of extensive burn-in, they seem a little better than the originals in all my tick-box areas, but I know they are there so my bias risk is high and the effect is small enough to be missable (at last for a while). And some of these cables just carry signal. In the absence of any objective reason to expect A to sound better than B, this looks like a great example of 'not evidence it isn't imaginary'.

However, I have a lot of boxes and cables,and I am not obsessive about organising/ dressing them, even though I think I have observed some infinitesimal difference from cable waggling. Back when St. Julian was starting Naim and a lot of systems had one source and one amp, using unscreened cables probably wasn't a problem. Increase complexity and resolution, and now it may be. Naim cables are, as I understand it, completely unscreened. Witch Hat are not.

I thought about this because I noticed that the vague impression that something tiny changed if I did something daft with the cables vanished with WH. If stupid dressing of the cables makes any difference with WH, I am sure I can't hear it. If I have understood the more tech here, sorting out the wiring mess supposedly cuts low-level mush - I didn't know I had any, but that sounds quite a lot like what I noted with WH.

Is it possible that the key difference is as simple as 2 otherwise similar cables having different screening? How much it difference it makes would be different because no 2 people have exactly the same nest of wires which also fits 'ear witness' reports. People with lots of boxes probably get more benefit - ditto.

I may test this by also trying a cheaper cable - cheap but portly screened. Or taking out cables and boxes so that there is far less cabling and then trying standard Naim again. If that sounds to me just as good as Morgana, it may be a hint toward an explanation with no Woo at all!

Of course, that may not be what we hear.

Rest assured, I will also let my girlfriend see me putting new cables in (actually the old ones) and will then ask what she thinks. If she thinks they sound identical to (or better than) the WH that's been in use for the last 2 weeks, that'll be data for me, if not to an observer.
 
So we can't believe what we hear? Sorry, but the tired "expectation bias" argument won't wash with me and is an insult to the intelligence of those of us who have been into this hobby for longer than we care to remember.
And that's the beauty of it, you don't even realise that it has happened. Lots of evidence, recorded and peer reviewed that shows that we can be fooled into what we expect not what we know. The mind is a terrible thing to taste..no,no...lol...the mind is a very powerful thing and we can be easily, often subconsciously lead from the path we think we are on.

TBH, one can bluster all one wants about it, cast oneself as someone above it all, but it won't help, we are all subject to it.
 
Yes, but we are not all subject to it all the time. Once you’ve seen the clip with the man in the gorilla suit in the basketball game, you may well notice him the next time you see that clip. And a proportion of people will see it the first time.

And it cuts both ways. People who don’t expect to hear a difference won’t hear a difference.
 
Yes, but we are not all subject to it all the time. Once you’ve seen the clip with the man in the gorilla suit in the basketball game, you may well notice him the next time you see that clip.

And it cuts both ways. People who don’t expect to hear a difference won’t hear a difference.
And people that expect to hear a difference hear one.

And that's the rub, we are just we...:)
 
So if we are saying that some super dooper IC can for some unknown reason carry audio signal infinitely better than a standard cable how does that effect continue when the amplifier it’s connected to is wired with standard (or substandard) copper & solder?
 
So we can't believe what we hear? Sorry, but the tired "expectation bias" argument won't wash with me and is an insult to the intelligence of those of us who have been into this hobby for longer than we care to remember.
I've been in this hobby for longer than I care to remember but I wouldn't trust my intelligence to be able to firmly sidestep the known phenomena of psychoacoustic hoodwinking.
 
I've been in this hobby for longer than I care to remember but I wouldn't trust my intelligence to be able to firmly sidestep the known phenomena of psychoacoustic hoodwinking.
Interesting. This raises questions such as, if the ear is this suggestible, is there a scenario in which the system isn't overruled by this perceptual bias and if so, what's it sound like then?

Does it matter, and how exactly does it pertain - the ear is suggestible enough that it doesn't seem sensible to consult some outside metric when shopping.

Is there a related audibility threshold and are all components and systems equally affected?

Is this hoodwinking universal? Does it affect everyone equally? What is the average distribution, if any?

Lastly, given this influence, is there any sense in advising another listener what he should hear or audition?
 


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