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I heard some Harbeths (but my review is very very long...)

sideshowbob said:
Ouch, T. This is why I leave well alone. I feel your pain.

On the plus side, hopefully this is the beginning of the end of the myth that Quad solid state electronics are faulty in any significant way.

On the Tannoy question, all the best Tannoys are 12" and larger, and in big cabinets. And all big Tannoys I've heard work exceptionally well in the average UK living room.
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we must be wrong steven thinks the 1o's are better....:D
 
In the 1980 when I was doing Magnum, I had Tannoy Buckinghams, they were amazing and very good for low signal 102dB , I ran them on Magnum A100 at 400W/Channel and on the Pink Floyd The Wall the Helicopter made you feel sick in side from the sound pressure.
Now I am stone deaf (kidding) I would love to have them back please. So I have very fond memories of Tannoy,
 
Darryl, I prefer the 10s. YMMV.

The guy who built my amp seems to like his 10 inch Kensingtons in preference to the 15 inch Glenairs he had before them. I agree and so does his missus.
 
I bought a pair of TD12's, less than a year old, from an auction. Very cheap and thought I had cracked it but after a month or so I just couldn't get on with them so I sold them. Buyer was delighted and I went back to my older Tannoys which I still have and love.
 
Tony L,


That why some people like Apples, while others like Oranges. It's nothing more then an individuals preference that counts in the end.

Case in point, ArtK mentioned to me last year about the DeVore Fidelity Gibbon 3's being a great choice of speakers worth looking into, and I'm glad that I did, as the ones I own were the last pair made and available though their dealers.

In July, I met a friend though another friend whom had never heard Vinyl, so they both came by for a listening session - within 3 days this same guy had obtained a WTRP along with a Clearaudio Maestro Wood and Heed Quasar. At another time he brought over his Harbeth Compact 7ES-3's to compare to said Gibbon 3's, and even though I found the highs and manner in which the C7's rendered vocals were quite addictive - and he said my speakers where laid-back and somewhat dull, yet had great bass for such a small speaker, and was very refined.

Fast forward 4 months, and we all drive down to Cleveland Ohio to hear the WTA with an Acoustic Plan PhonoMaster used with either a Leben CS600 or Shindo Lab separates driving a pair of DeVore Gibbon 3XL's into a room about 24' w. X 49' l. and the results were incredible to say the least.

This guy got home and said within 5 notes he had to cut his system off, and watch television as it was so bad. He had gone on to consider selling off his entire system and start anew with a 300B integrated amplifier and guess what............?, a pair of those boring - colored - dullish - yet very very neutral and accurately Musical lift Gibbon 3XL's, as a matter of fact, both guys are craving a pair.


Lesson taken from this!, I got it right the first time around - and where I'm listening to Music!, these guys are trying to save funds to get the speakers, isn't it nice to know others are following your lead and beginning to trust in your opinions!.

I've always told others, just because something is newer and sounds different!, doesn't make it better sounding then some components we're looking to replace - merely different and nothing more.

We all much come to realize one thing - " Went our systems are clicking!, and I mean CLICKING - leave well enough alone ".

It's nothing more then a reality check.

Regards,
Oscar
 
The sad thing about that story el34, is that this guy didn't hear his Harbeths with the Leben 600 - that's supposed to be a fantastic combination. You might be writing off some good speakers you've heard in the wrong combination, and the wrong environment.

A 24' x 49' room! Oh America!
 
Tony,

This is depressing to read. Hope you move the Harbs quickly and buy back the old Tannoy's.

BW,
John
 
Elephantears,


I couldn't agree with you more. In some cases I myself have sold off this or that piece, to later hear it in the contents of an entirely different set up and want to slit my freaking wrist it sounded so damn good - that's why of late I've been emphasizing something to others that I picked up from Roy Gregory - the importance of Foundation.

By starting at the wall outlets themselves - then line conditioning, power cords, speaker cables and stands along with isolation devices has allowed me to find tune my system to suit both my listening space and preferences as well, and finally using the interconnects to voice said system has proven itself very positive to my mind.

Most people simply purchase a component and plop it down here or there misunderstanding its requirement for proper isolation as a whole and wonder why their systems are lacking!, I've learned to trust in my ears above all else.


Oh!, and by the way the Leben CS300X has a greater sense of musicality to my ears over the more costly CS600, call it involvement or whatever but it's obvious to me that the CS300X along with that little 15w/pc Shindo Labs Monitelle (?) EL84 based integrated amp are doing something to the musical notes that the larger units are glossing over.

And finally - yes the older American homes have larger rooms then most - no wonder seriously audiophiles have the desire to show off those larger then life Sound Lab Speakers driving with 4 Wolcott 300 w/pc mono-blocks. Size matters when it's all about showing off just how wealthy you are - but it's another thing being dumb enough to show others you can't hear worth a f_ _k!.


Get me Musicality over the show room - status pieces any given day of the week. All that money invested in ones system, yet not idea what Music should sound like isn't something to be proud of.

4 box Infinity Beta Speakers rule ( yeah right ). I rather listen to original Linn Kans on Kan Stand II's.
It's not about size in this instants - it's about ones ability to hear.

Cheers,
Oscar
 
Tony L said:
Please note all the above impressions relating to the HL5 are made with my Prima Luna Prologue 2 tube amp alone, an amp which doesn't seem to like the HL5 very much. Rob came up with his lightly tweaked Quad 34/306 and, whilst it sounded smaller and less weighty than the PL2 it did sound a lot more even, especially in the crossover / lower treble region. Rob came to the conclusion that my PL2 doesn't like the 35 Ohm impedance spike at 2Khz (link), or more accurately it did like it, a lot, far more than the valleys either side. Apparently this situation only applies to tube amps, transistor amps will simply not have this / any issue at all. Anyway, I really like my little tube amp and don't want to go back to solid state, so it makes sense to reverse out the speakers in this situation.
Click to expand...

Just to flesh this out more generally:

The impedance on the HL5 swings around between 6 and 35 Ohms.
The 35 ohm high point is right in the crossover area, with another high point of 25 Ohms around the main driver resonance at 50Hz.
Between these points we see a minimum of six Ohms.
Driven from the high output impedance of the PL amplifier, more output is produced around the peaks - and this is what we could hear quite clearly.
Nearly all solid state amplifiers, with their far lower output impedance will not produce this effect.

Most valve amps do this and one way to minimise the effect is to run the speakers from the 4 Ohm transformer tap. Less voltage swing so possibly less maximum SPL but you'll be driving the loudspeaker from a lower source impedance. That is usually better - though some loudspeakers will show little difference and might even prefer the 8 Ohm tap, certainly those with good self damping (like vintage Tannoys) and especially single driver solutions which have far flatter impedance characteristics.
 
Robert said:
Just to flesh this out more generally:

The impedance on the HL5 swings around between 6 and 35 Ohms.
The 35 ohm high point is right in the crossover area, with another high point of 25 Ohms around the main driver resonance at 50Hz.
Between these points we see a minimum of six Ohms.
Driven from the high output impedance of the PL amplifier, more output is produced around the peaks - and this is what we could hear quite clearly.
Nearly all solid state amplifiers, with their far lower output impedance will not produce this effect.

Most valve amps do this and one way to minimise the effect is to run the speakers from the 4 Ohm transformer tap. Less voltage swing so possibly less maximum SPL but you'll be driving the loudspeaker from a lower source impedance. That is usually better - though some loudspeakers will show little difference and might even prefer the 8 Ohm tap, certainly those with good self damping (like vintage Tannoys) and especially single driver solutions which have far flatter impedance characteristics.
Click to expand...


For whatever reason, here in the States at least most dealers recommend using Solid State amps with the Harbeth line, when asked about speakers in general one dealer went so far as to mention that if you prefer tube amps look at the Stirling Broadcast LS 3/5a V2's, and the P3ESR's if your primary amp is SS!, and I think his recommendations were sound.


Here owners normally use Harbeth's with either LFD - Naim or Lavardin amps, just reading between the lines on this one - but it seems valid.

No matter what a reviewer says - the proof is in the listening. While some recommended the P3ESR's for me hear last year, my gut instincts kept saying otherwise, and I'm glad I did, as the DeVore Fidelity Gibbon 3's are much better balanced and actually offer something that resembles bass to my ears, as well as being more organic as a whole.

Again apples and oranges. YMMV!, but we all have to be more honest to our senses and not by into the one size fits all BS.


Live Life and along the path - remember how to listen with both your ears and heart!, if something doesn't move me emotionally - it serves no purpose.

We all just need to understand the vital differences that exist Hi-Fi and Mi-Fi.

Best wishes to us all, and shall we all pray for peace in our lifetime - because 2012 is right around the corner whether you believe in the Mayan calendar or not?, a storm is coming one way or the other, it's up to all of us to make this a better planet, is it not?.

Regards,
Oscar
 
Hi Oscar,

I can well understand the preference for SS with the Harbeths.
Of course some might like the effect produced with many valve amps - it would be even more pronounced with some of the more exotic SE units if that is the road people want to travel. The testing at Tony's was really to help identify the source of his concerns and therefore clarify the options.
 
el34eh said:
For whatever reason, here in the States at least most dealers recommend using Solid State amps with the Harbeth line, when asked about speakers in general one dealer went so far as to mention that if you prefer tube amps look at the Stirling Broadcast LS 3/5a V2's, and the P3ESR's if your primary amp is SS!, and I think his recommendations were sound.


Here owners normally use Harbeth's with either LFD - Naim or Lavardin amps, just reading between the lines on this one - but it seems valid.

No matter what a reviewer says - the proof is in the listening. While some recommended the P3ESR's for me hear last year, my gut instincts kept saying otherwise, and I'm glad I did, as the DeVore Fidelity Gibbon 3's are much better balanced and actually offer something that resembles bass to my ears, as well as being more organic as a whole.

Again apples and oranges. YMMV!, but we all have to be more honest to our senses and not by into the one size fits all BS.


Live Life and along the path - remember how to listen with both your ears and heart!, if something doesn't move me emotionally - it serves no purpose.

We all just need to understand the vital differences that exist Hi-Fi and Mi-Fi.

Best wishes to us all, and shall we all pray for peace in our lifetime - because 2012 is right around the corner whether you believe in the Mayan calendar or not?, a storm is coming one way or the other, it's up to all of us to make this a better planet, is it not?.

Regards,
Oscar
Click to expand...

The Gibbon 3's have more bass but trust me Oscar, they aren't more balanced. I have a lot of experience with both lines and regardless what our friends have been telling you, it ain't so.
 
Robert said:
Just to flesh this out more generally:

The impedance on the HL5 swings around between 6 and 35 Ohms.
The 35 ohm high point is right in the crossover area, with another high point of 25 Ohms around the main driver resonance at 50Hz.
Between these points we see a minimum of six Ohms.
Driven from the high output impedance of the PL amplifier, more output is produced around the peaks - and this is what we could hear quite clearly.
Nearly all solid state amplifiers, with their far lower output impedance will not produce this effect.

Most valve amps do this and one way to minimise the effect is to run the speakers from the 4 Ohm transformer tap. Less voltage swing so possibly less maximum SPL but you'll be driving the loudspeaker from a lower source impedance. That is usually better - though some loudspeakers will show little difference and might even prefer the 8 Ohm tap, certainly those with good self damping (like vintage Tannoys) and especially single driver solutions which have far flatter impedance characteristics.
Click to expand...

Rob,

Were you present during Tony's bi-wire tests? If so, what are your thoughts on what was heard? (Any technical explanation for what he's experienced would be welcome also.)

regards,

dave
 
Tony

I haven't read the whole thread, just skimmed it, but do you think the latest Harb's were less musically engaging than the C7s you used to have?
Or is it that the big Tannoys have corrupted you?

red

ps...which amp were you using (Densen?) when you had the C7?
 
redeye said:
Tony

I haven't read the whole thread, just skimmed it, but do you think the latest Harb's were less musically engaging than the C7s you used to have?
Or is it that the big Tannoys have corrupted you?

red

ps...which amp were you using (Densen?) when you had the C7?
Click to expand...

I'm not intending to answer for Tony, but I've learnt that room issues are crucial with the 5's, and that you need to think about your room carefully before diving in to the Harbeth range. This contradicts a few things we might have said on this thread, and some things that are generally said about Harbeths.

I've just been told by the Canadian dealer, Planet of Sound, that I have a C7 sized room, and there's nothing I can do about it. I'm just on the border of a 5 sized room but not quite. So whilst I fell in love with the 5's after hearing them in big rooms I just can't quite accommodate them. One problem I had was that the the soundstage they projected was too often compromising the integrity of a central voice. Another was that I had difficulty controlling treble reflections.

Sorry, you were asking Tony, I'll stop now. I just wanted to make clear that although this thread has effectively concluded with me not buying and Tony selling his, I don't think this reflects the quality of the speakers themselves.
 
Elephantears said:
but I've learnt that room issues are crucial with the 5's
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Crucial with any speaker.
I feel Tony's pain on this one. The time I bought some very expensive EV horns turned into a really painful experience that I'm in no hurry to repeat. The best lessons are often the hardest.
 
joel said:
Crucial with any speaker.
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(room issues that is)

I can't argue with that, but then the small speakers I'm using are not nearly as fussy. However they are much less ambitious.

I'm getting the impression from various posts here and from reading around that they are some unwritten rules with the various speakers that emerged from the BC1/SP1 2 foot cube box tradition. Since they have been around for so long its a shame someone with long and deep experience hasn't collated all their knowledge about the speaker/room interfaces with these speakers. I mean the SHL5's are a modification of a 30 year tradition, so I would have thought the ground rules might be clearer.

Perhaps it just never is clear, since all rooms are so idiosyncratic. I don't have the experience to say. I am struck though that the Canadian dealer I've communicated with, who has lots of experience selling Harbeths, is really firm about the rules of the room interface. They will have much more variation in customer room size that in the UK I would think. This is their general perspective:

https://www.planetofsoundonline.com/articles/roomacoustics.php

I would guess that what they say there is fairly basic information to pinkfishers with more speaker experience than me, but it seems clear and full of good sense.
 
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