How powerful is a Nait 2?

[Joe P]

Since I'm the man of a thousands questions — well, two questions — does clipping do in electrostatic panels?

I'm certain my ears would give out before the diaphragms in my headphones, but I would be a sad, sad fishie if I accidentally destroyed me ear speakers.

Joe

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Thanks!

So you agree with 1-3?

Let me subdivide 4 and 5 further, so again, which parts do you disagree with?

- Amplifier clipping causes a lot of high frequency harmonics that put proportionally more power into the tweeter
- So does highly compressed and distorted pop/rock music too (guitars, synths)
- You can drive an amplifier quite far beyond it's specified power if you don't care about distortion
- This can be up to 100% more than nominal maximum power.

You are completely, utterly, spectacularly, 100% wrong. The main cause of blown tweeters is clipping from amplifiers. It always has been and always will be. Wire your own speakers up to a 25WPC amp and turn it to full volume and tell me what happens to your tweeters. Recordings of clipped sound are completely different!
End of my participation in this discussion. But next time you claim the same thing Julf I'll be saying you are spectacularly wrong yet again.

 

[Julf]

You are completely, utterly, spectacularly, 100% wrong.

Feel free to believe so, but seems your claim is not based on any facts.

The main cause of blown tweeters is clipping from amplifiers. It always has been and always will be.

Just you repeating it over and over again doesn't make it so.

Wire your own speakers up to a 25WPC amp and turn it to full volume and tell me what happens to your tweeters.

I am actually doing exactly that. Driving a bunch of tweeters with a 20 W class D amp, blasting out high frequencies to deter rodents. It has now been
running 8 hours per day for almost a year, without damage.

Recordings of clipped sound are completely different!

In what way, in your view?

But next time you claim the same thing Julf I'll be saying you are spectacularly wrong yet again.

Too bad you seem rather set in your belief.

 

[Julf]

Since I'm the man of a thousands questions — well, two questions — does clipping do in electrostatic panels?

In electrostatics the limiting factor tends to be either high voltage sparks/breakthrough, or mechanical extension becoming so big that the diaphragm touches the static poles, shorting the high voltage.

 

[Julf]

Does the tweeter really care whether the square-wave comes from some deaf idiot playing their stereo too loud at a party and into obvious clipping or perfectly clean from a Minimoog? I don’t see how it could tell the difference.

Indeed. It can't. Tweeters don't really have a very sophisticated taste in music.

 

[Joe P]

Before this gets too heated, let me insert a Scotty meme.

Joe

 

[John Phillips]

I have ATC SCM12 (old version as described here http://www.traveltraxaudio.com/atc/scm12.htm) and would like to know if a Nait 2 (Olive finish, "CD" version BTW) would (or wouldn't) struggle driving them
Probably yes according to the specs:
- Sensitivity (sine wave) : 85dB @ 1W @ 1M
- Recommended Power : 50 to 300 Watts
... but as it is often mentioned that the old Naits (1 & 2) offer more "subjective" power than the figures suggest, may I expect a good surprise?
…

To get a realistic answer, the question about the Nait2 really needs to be split into two parts:

1. Is it powerful enough to produce adequate loudness based on the loudspeakers' sensitivity?
2. Is it powerful enough to drive the worst impedance the loudspeakers have?

Part 1: Maximum possible loudness comes from rated amplifier power and loudspeaker sensitivity. 13W from the Nait2 will barely (at least from my PoV) get good loudness with a rather below average 85 dB SPL sensitivity SCM12. If you listen at fairly low level and/or close to the loudspeakers and/or in a small room it is just possible it will be enough. However, I think something is needed closer to the ATC minimum figure of 50W to be comfortable.

Part 2: As you write, the Nait2 has a reputation for being able to drive loudspeakers having a difficult impedance. Actually most ATC loudspeakers seem to have a reasonably easy impedance, even if they are difficult because of low sensitivity instead. But unless you achieve adequate loudness for your needs, as in part 1, this second part is, IHMO, not likely to significantly compensate.

 

[Yank]

Before this gets too heated, let me insert a Scotty meme.

Joe

...and played by a Canadian of Irish descent.

 

[Hook]

...and played by a Canadian of Irish descent.

But would the meme be as cool if it ended with “Drink Canadian (or Irish) Whiskey”? I just don’t know!

 

[Joe P]

Dudes,

Whether Scottish, Irish or Canadian, Scotty was awesome and full of distilled wisdom.

Scotty on analgesics (jump to 0:40)

Scotty on potential scotch mixes (jump to 0:12)

Scotty on green booze (jump to 2:05) and scotch (2:40)

Joe

 

[beammeup]

I owned a vintage Marantz amp with Watt meters once - I was totally surprised how little wattage was indicated on the dial when playing music up quite loud on a pair of 86dB loudspeakers. It barely swung beyond 7 watts.

I'm not saying that's a reliable way of determining things - it was just my observation. I was listening in the garage - and the space there is smaller than in my lounge.

 

[coltrane]

If you say so, but I would love to hear what parts of the document I linked to you disagree with, and why.

honestly, I see no point at all - do the test but not with a Class-D amp as the discussion's about a Class-B one the lil' Nait being the very type

 

[Julf]

honestly, I see no point at all - do the test but not with a Class-D amp as the discussion's about a Class-B one the lil' Nait being the very type

The only class B amps used for audio are small, portable, battery-powered ones, but curious to hear why you believe it makes a difference.

 

[Julf]

honestly, I see no point at all - do the test but not with a Class-D amp as the discussion's about a Class-B one the lil' Nait being the very type

So anyway, I ask you too:

Which ones of the following statements do you disagree with?

- Tweeters are destroyed by the voice coil overheating
- The overheating is caused by excessive power dissipated in the voice coil
- The power dissipated in the voice coil is directly proportional to amplifier output power
- Amplifier clipping causes a lot of high frequency harmonics that put proportionally more power into the tweeter, but so does highly compressed and distorted pop/rock music too (guitars, synths)
- You can drive an amplifier quite far beyond it's specified power if you don't care about distortion - up to 100% more than nominal maximum power.

 

[Martyn Miles]

I never thought I’d say, but let’s get back to the Nait 2.

 

[horta]

NO NAIT 1.

 

[YNWOAN]

Well the Nait 1 and 2 are pretty much the same thing.

 

[flatpopely]

Thanks!

So you agree with 1-3?

Let me subdivide 4 and 5 further, so again, which parts do you disagree with?

- Amplifier clipping causes a lot of high frequency harmonics that put proportionally more power into the tweeter
- So does highly compressed and distorted pop/rock music too (guitars, synths)
- You can drive an amplifier quite far beyond it's specified power if you don't care about distortion
- This can be up to 100% more than nominal maximum power.

It’s not the clipping that kills tweeters per se, it the tendency towards a square wave (DC) that does them in.

 

[Martyn Miles]

Well the Nait 1 and 2 are pretty much the same thing.

I thought the adherents only genuflect towards the Nait 1.

 

[martin clark]

Well the Nait 1 and 2 are pretty much the same thing.

<naitnerd>
NAIT2 has a quasi-complementary output stage. The NAIT1 was fully complementary.
</naitnerd>