How good must a TT be to equal a decent digital set-up?
- Thread starter mattgbell
- Start date
merlin
Avatar changed - Town names deemed offensive.
I think it's important to emphasize the degradation that takes place in the analogue domain with each generation from the original master. If you compare an analogue master tape with a vinyl copy you will hear a much higher noise floor along with and edginess to the sound that wasn't there with the master and is suggestive of added distortion.
With a digital master, in reality you should be able to hear what the engineer hears when you buy a download.
With a digital master, in reality you should be able to hear what the engineer hears when you buy a download.
scottcarpenter
pfm Member
DNM
pfm Member
Not sure if this quote was in relation to Vital's statement, and me concurring, that some digitally mastered LP's sound better than the CD?
In any event, Vital is right IME, some LP's do seem to be unmolested transfers from the 24bit studio master. Many LP's are simply CD transfers however so would suffer from the same loudness/compression that may have been re-mastered into the CD.
One example of an album I really like would be El Camino by the Black Keys whom my eldest daughter introduced me to. When I first heard the CD I loved the music but hated the recording, it gave me a headache. I purchased it on vinyl and it sounded much better. By no means a great recording but much more pleasurable to listen to. If you check the DR database, http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=black+keys&album=El+Camino, the CD has an average DR of only 6 and the vinyl 11. I know the DR database isn't always accurate but based on my listening experience that sounds about right to me. More proof if any were needed that its all in the mastering of the release and not the format.
I just don't think there are enough examples like this of contemporary rock/pop to warrant spending £4k on a TT and building a record collection.
Whaleblue
Southbound
So it depends if the other aspects of vinyl, including its visceral beauty, and the possibility of acquiring s/h as well as new, LPs appeal.
DevillEars
Dedicated ignorer of fashion
A neighbour who runs an internet PC sales outlet popped 'round with his other half for a drink a couple of weeks back when I was spinning some vinyl. After a two-hour request session they left. His only music replay facility is a Samsung CD-based boombox with 4 gigawatts PMPO per channel...
The next morning I received a call from the lad - he was at a local audio dealer and asked if I could join him to give some counsel on his purchase. Having bought a fair amount of PC hardware from him - and with more to come - it seemed like a wise investment of my time to accede to the request.
By the time I got there, he'd already made the purchase (he's something of an impulse buyer):
While not what would have fired my enthusiasm, this is a subjective hobby, so made no comment - just went back to his place and set it up for him.
The Samsung wound up as a gift to one of the security staff in the complex.
The following Sunday was the day of our local Vinyl Fair - a gathering where both new and used vinyl is available for purchase. He came back with ~30 albums (and now has my RCM on loan for the foreseeable future...)
So, here we have someone in his early 30s who has gone from zero to 30 albums in just under a week - while going from zero to vinyl replay platform in the same timescale.
He's not unique these days - that Vinyl Fair used to be the sole hunting ground for other geriatrics like me, but is now dominated by a younger crowd that are diving into vinyl in a big way - which has affected the background music (for the worse) and the mix of available software (less and less jazz/classics, more and more nasty rock...
There is a growing market here in S. Africa for half-decent entry-level vinyl replay gear and a flourishing market for vinyl software - most of the traditionally-CD music stores have growing inventories of new vinyl to satisfy this growing demand.
Forgetting the sonics comparison, there is something tactile and satisfying in handling black pizzas and being able to read jacket notes without the aid of an electron microscope...
Welcome back, vinyl!
The next morning I received a call from the lad - he was at a local audio dealer and asked if I could join him to give some counsel on his purchase. Having bought a fair amount of PC hardware from him - and with more to come - it seemed like a wise investment of my time to accede to the request.
By the time I got there, he'd already made the purchase (he's something of an impulse buyer):
- Marantz integrated amp
- B&W CM9 floorstanders
- NAD C556 turntable (with an MM cart that is NOT an Ortofon)
- Cambridge Audio CX-N media player
While not what would have fired my enthusiasm, this is a subjective hobby, so made no comment - just went back to his place and set it up for him.
The Samsung wound up as a gift to one of the security staff in the complex.
The following Sunday was the day of our local Vinyl Fair - a gathering where both new and used vinyl is available for purchase. He came back with ~30 albums (and now has my RCM on loan for the foreseeable future...)
So, here we have someone in his early 30s who has gone from zero to 30 albums in just under a week - while going from zero to vinyl replay platform in the same timescale.
He's not unique these days - that Vinyl Fair used to be the sole hunting ground for other geriatrics like me, but is now dominated by a younger crowd that are diving into vinyl in a big way - which has affected the background music (for the worse) and the mix of available software (less and less jazz/classics, more and more nasty rock...
There is a growing market here in S. Africa for half-decent entry-level vinyl replay gear and a flourishing market for vinyl software - most of the traditionally-CD music stores have growing inventories of new vinyl to satisfy this growing demand.
Forgetting the sonics comparison, there is something tactile and satisfying in handling black pizzas and being able to read jacket notes without the aid of an electron microscope...
Welcome back, vinyl!
A neighbour who runs an internet PC sales outlet popped 'round with his other half for a drink a couple of weeks back when I was spinning some vinyl. After a two-hour request session they left. His only music replay facility is a Samsung CD-based boombox with 4 gigawatts PMPO per channel...
The next morning I received a call from the lad - he was at a local audio dealer and asked if I could join him to give some counsel on his purchase. Having bought a fair amount of PC hardware from him - and with more to come - it seemed like a wise investment of my time to accede to the request.
By the time I got there, he'd already made the purchase (he's something of an impulse buyer):
- Marantz integrated amp
- B&W CM9 floorstanders
- NAD C556 turntable (with an MM cart that is NOT an Ortofon)
- Cambridge Audio CX-N media player
While not what would have fired my enthusiasm, this is a subjective hobby, so made no comment - just went back to his place and set it up for him.
The Samsung wound up as a gift to one of the security staff in the complex.
The following Sunday was the day of our local Vinyl Fair - a gathering where both new and used vinyl is available for purchase. He came back with ~30 albums (and now has my RCM on loan for the foreseeable future...)
So, here we have someone in his early 30s who has gone from zero to 30 albums in just under a week - while going from zero to vinyl replay platform in the same timescale.
He's not unique these days - that Vinyl Fair used to be the sole hunting ground for other geriatrics like me, but is now dominated by a younger crowd that are diving into vinyl in a big way - which has affected the background music (for the worse) and the mix of available software (less and less jazz/classics, more and more nasty rock...
There is a growing market here in S. Africa for half-decent entry-level vinyl replay gear and a flourishing market for vinyl software - most of the traditionally-CD music stores have growing inventories of new vinyl to satisfy this growing demand.
Forgetting the sonics comparison, there is something tactile and satisfying in handling black pizzas and being able to read jacket notes without the aid of an electron microscope...
Welcome back, vinyl!
thumbs up. I like this story and seems to be not that unusual anymore. Vinyl isn't dead, seems to be having a sustained resurgence, for a number of reasons. It's no longer solely the domain of the generations originally associated with it.
Hazelberry
sister
Hey I had a similar experience with the El Camino CD. Glad it's not just me, because your complaint is the only one I've encountered anywhere apart from mine. (I had a moan about the CD in another thread not long ago.) I took a tip and had a listen with my cans the other day and it was immediately apparent that compression was at issue. It was less congested sounding than through the speakers but again my ears cried uncle after just a couple of tracks.
I wonder if compression was used right through the recording process. The kick drum is particularly horrible sounding, all dry and blocky. Also I wonder if instrument tracks were compressed during the mix and the whole thing again during mastering - more so for the digital release. Compared to the mastering I'm used to (not for contemporary pop, basically), it really is that bad. Honestly, I find this approach to be not only anathema for enjoyment, but actually disrespectful to music making.
Blah blah! Otherwise I like the music. Thanks for the vinyl tip off.
Hazelberry
sister
Concerning your friend's system and NAD tt in particular, while I'm not generally in the habit of encouraging anyone to get into vinyl from scratch, I don't feel anyone need spend a mortgage to get great results from the format. I'm very happy with my lightly upgraded and slightly modded Planar 3 wearing a good cartridge, all with an approximate value of 400 GBP. Mastering and pressing quality of new LPs and wear of used ones are vastly greater limiting factors.
PsB
Citizen of Nowhere™
That may have been true 25-30 years ago, but no longer IMO.
DNM
pfm Member
The CD is particularly bad but the vinyl really isn't that great either. It won't have you reaching for the Nurofen like the CD but it lacks dynamic range and instrument separation.
This would imply the studio master isn't that great either, which sadly seems the case with most of today's rock and pop. With music sales primarily on MP3 for ear bud consumption and the recording having had any life compressed out of it, why waste time and money on high fidelity studio recording for a tiny minority of audiophiles? Besides, bands like the Black Keys make most of their money touring and playing live, not selling records and certainly not selling vinyl records. I saw them with my kids at the IOW Festival a couple of weeks ago and they sounded very good there.
forester
pfm Member
I'm a bit more serious about my question that the 'opinion' made it sound. It was probably 25 years ago too!
Would you really need to spend the £4500 or so Linn want for an ADSM to match a good Akurate level LP12 (or your preferred equivalent), and are the digital files not images of said cd's anyway?
It's more out of curiosity than necessity as there's plenty of good vinyl available (though it's just as variable as ever). If it's only £500 to match the TT then it might be worth a go. Can't see why I would want to pay a monthly subscription and never own the music though.
jamjar784
Heavy Up
Glad you got a positive amongst thread crapping. See it's not all sh!te on here
@Tony L
Please can we have a 'likes' button so posters like LouisB know that many readers sympathise with points made but may not post back a reply?
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
A friend who worked in recording when Cd was released stated that for the first time they heard on the Cd what they heard in the studio.
Keith
Glad you got a positive amongst thread crapping. See it's not all sh!te on here
@Tony L
Please can we have a 'likes' button so posters like LouisB know that many readers sympathise with points made but may not post back a reply?
Hi, thank you. Absolutely, I can see through nonsense relatively clearly these days (I think).
I'm a member of and have since further joined some other forums for a more balanced view.
It wouldn't be difficult to speculate that people may be afraid to comment on this forum due to some strong pre-set ideas.
In any case, for me it's no more than a little light hearted fun.
There's probably one thing many will agree on, the modern trend of over compression and the loudness wars. If I take a digital file or extract a CD and put it into one of my audio editing software apps, it's like looking at an on-off switch. 'Off' during the gaps, then 100% all the way through the track. Compressed to crap.
Real music and life in general isn't like that. Ever more evident if you go and watch a live performance for example. Compression is fine, over compression is the work of the devil. Not hard to see how it's gone this way, digital distortion ('clipping') sounds like it came straight from hell and low res formats like mp3 (and CD to a lesser degree) abound where their resolution doesn't really support full dynamics so well, in the true sense of the word. So the tendency to compress the crap out of it, then it might sound passable and competitive on the TV/radio. Try to preserve the dynamics and shortcomings will start to reveal themselves more easily, even to the regular consumer.
Digitize the sound of your favourite vinyl lp coming from your TT. Then do a blind test between the original vinyl sound and digitized vinyl sound. Then you'll know.
scottcarpenter
pfm Member
I did exactly that and it sounded shit in comparison!
I then put another record on...