How good must a TT be to equal a decent digital set-up?
- Thread starter mattgbell
- Start date
DV,
Not quite. Once you bandlimit the signal, say to 20Khz, you don't have an infinite number of harmonics, but a very limited number, except for low frequency stuff but that's a different question.
Take an old school audio frequency signal generator, and set it to 12Khz. Now switch it between sine, triangle, saw, square, whatever it has, and it will sound the same to you. Look at the results on a oscilloscope, and it won't look the same due to the higher order harmonics affecting the shape, but since all these harmonics are above 20Khz, you won't be able to hear them unless you are a bat.
Sample the above signals at 44.1Khz (cd standard) and they would ideally look the same as they only have a single harmonic below nyquist (22.05Khz). In reality, they will not produce identical output due to a number of boring technical problems, but basically it would boil down to the inability to produce a brick wall filter that didn't affect the pass band.
If you used a more sophisticated ADC, and sampled at a much higher rate, you could use a digital domain filter to produce the 44.1Khz digital signal, and this would have a higher chance of being identical.
Boring, but worth pointing out, you really can't generalise too much looking at a signal on a scope which isn't bandlimited, and reasoning about what happens when you sample it.
Cesare
BTW, if you look at a bandlimited signal on the scope, and pre/post an ADC/DAC stage, it will look identical.
adamdea
You are not a sound quality evaluation device
So far so good
danger danger. You might be able to draw it with a pencil, but you couldn't record it in the real world with analog either.
Actully darth I'm pretty sure that the answer to that is no. Music does not consist of anything like square waves. Maths is maths and whatever waveform composes the square wave would have to have infinite bandwidth - it's got nothing to do with digital as opposed to analog systems. I'm pretty sure that music can't consist of any other discontinuous functions- its forms must be limited to what a sound pressure wave can do, even if (which is a very big if) it is not limited by what a human being can hear. You can't just push all the air molecules sideways and hold them there.
anyway this is for another thread.
Darth Vader
From the Dark Side
Maybe if its electronic. However there are fast rising transients that come close. The thing is all those different wave functions present in music will interact in the electronic phase and so is likely to reproduce other discontinuous functions.
From the demo I am led to believe that the A/D to D/A process cannot resolve discontinuous wave functions. However it may just be that one single function i.e. a square wave is special? But until that has been proven I suspect that other wave functions present in music will not be accurately transcribed.
Another Q is does it matter. For the majority of the Worlds population probably not but for those who want to be able to replicate the sound of a seat at a live venue in their own home then yes.
Cheers,
DV
mattgbell
Help the elderly and unwell!
Yes, this /\
Darth,
"Another Q is does it matter. For the majority of the Worlds population probably not but for those who want to be able to replicate the sound of a seat at a live venue in their own home then yes."
I'm not sure it's ever going to be possible to re-create the sound of a concert hall in a space many orders of magnitude smaller.
And to be honest, I'm not at all sure I want my room to sound like the Albert Hall... Hall... Hall
"Another Q is does it matter. For the majority of the Worlds population probably not but for those who want to be able to replicate the sound of a seat at a live venue in their own home then yes."
I'm not sure it's ever going to be possible to re-create the sound of a concert hall in a space many orders of magnitude smaller.
And to be honest, I'm not at all sure I want my room to sound like the Albert Hall... Hall... Hall
DNM
pfm Member
Sure, thats very true, but in my experience its sometimes, rather than "often" the case. But then again, I stopped buying digitally mastered rock/pop vinyl LP's because I've found the manufacturing quality of too many pressings from the likes of 'Back to Black' and 'Music on Vinyl', etc. to be so poor.
Whilst you're right, in the OP's case, are there really sufficient superior vinyl pressings of digitally mastered rock 'n' pop recorded in the last 15 years to warrant spending £4k on a TT?
For listening to well recorded music mastered in analogue on high quality vinyl pressings, I'd spend £4k on a TT at the drop of a hat.
merlin
Avatar changed - Town names deemed offensive.
We are all entitled to enjoy listening to vinyl.
It's an experience. It takes many back to their childhood and (possibly)to happier more carefee times.
It's a process that is ingrained in many and the reading of the sleevenotes is a part of this.
So if you enjoy vinyl then the argument "I like listening to vinyl" is a perfectly reasonable and acceptable one.
Any argument suggesting it is objectively better than low resolution digital captures is however basically BS. The process of playing vinyl might me subjectively preferable. That's different.
It's an experience. It takes many back to their childhood and (possibly)to happier more carefee times.
It's a process that is ingrained in many and the reading of the sleevenotes is a part of this.
So if you enjoy vinyl then the argument "I like listening to vinyl" is a perfectly reasonable and acceptable one.
Any argument suggesting it is objectively better than low resolution digital captures is however basically BS. The process of playing vinyl might me subjectively preferable. That's different.
MVV
pfm Member
Quite, If I could just press a button and go digital with all my 1500 records I would. I enjoy them but they are beginning to irritate. I would keep 50 or so framed to put on the wall. For me I just haven't got the time or the energy to faf about selling them and get the digital thing up and running.
If there is a 'one stop' guy out there who can take the GTA/Cadenza blue 1450 record and leave a half decent front end loaded with the albums I need and make any appropriate cash adjustment please get in touch.
Better still take my Neat Vito Ultimatums and Naim pre-power kit and bring some silver Phantoms too. In which case no cash adjustment will be needed.
DNM
pfm Member
I'd settle on "often enough for me"
I think Mr mattgbell, with a D200 as a second system, will buy an expensive TT and I've no doubt he'll get a great deal of pleasure out of it for the myriad of reasons so many of us love vinyl LP's. If it's £4k for the hell of it, then thats cool. But if its £4k in the expectation of some form of audio nirvana, then he just might be disappointed.
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
I've not read all replies, but I'm still going to give you my opinion / experience based on very little! What else is a forum for?
The cartridge is the most important component. Get one with a fine profile that will dig deep into the groove and get detail out with a minimum of distortion. Besides giving a clean sound it also helps read grooves that have been previously worn by lesser elliptical styli.
Second, get a deck that is properly thought out in terms of resonance. You can either keep the material stiff and light to have resonances higher up the audible range but narrow band or you can go heavy and damped keeping resonances low down. Don't go half way getting a stiff light plinth with a heavy acrylic platter for example. Plinth, platter arm and cart compliance are a system that need to be designed to work together.
Get a phono stage that loads your cartridge correctly. The cart is basically a transducer and will respond differently depending on the resistance and capacitance it sees from the phono stage. Loading can make as much difference as going from a one brand of stage to another - in fact it can be the difference.
The cartridge is the most important component. Get one with a fine profile that will dig deep into the groove and get detail out with a minimum of distortion. Besides giving a clean sound it also helps read grooves that have been previously worn by lesser elliptical styli.
Second, get a deck that is properly thought out in terms of resonance. You can either keep the material stiff and light to have resonances higher up the audible range but narrow band or you can go heavy and damped keeping resonances low down. Don't go half way getting a stiff light plinth with a heavy acrylic platter for example. Plinth, platter arm and cart compliance are a system that need to be designed to work together.
Get a phono stage that loads your cartridge correctly. The cart is basically a transducer and will respond differently depending on the resistance and capacitance it sees from the phono stage. Loading can make as much difference as going from a one brand of stage to another - in fact it can be the difference.
torstoi
pfm Member
I know about turntables a bit and a bit about identifying the psychological patterns of trolls.
Invade reasonable discussions, provoke, offend, try to get someone on the hook.
If anyone bites, pull..
Usually people with several academic degrees in everything, who are in business & urgently needed to keep the countrys economy running.
...which is why they produce a stunning amount of over 100 posts within just a few days...
An amount that takes less competent members several years.
Should you have anymore suggestions where I should be allowed to participate in discussions here,
save your breath, I won't see it.
LouisB to ignore list. (and this is my part of the suggestion on here.)
Bye Louis.
Idea, if you don't want to see me post here. Stop quoting me in responses.
I was out last night, went and saw Fleetwood Mac, live. Loved it.
Now I come back to this, frankly it's a little sad.
It would be real easy for me to mock you further, but I'm going to keep it internal.
But thanks for taking the time to post that, it was really, um, useful and constructive. Well done you!
Whaleblue
Southbound
Louis, as mentioned by yourself in another post (and to which I replied) it's always dangerous to assume levels of knowledge/experience, and some folk will understandably bristle.
I'm always interested to learn more (I've leant a hell of a lot here so far), so please do post your thoughts on DSP in a new thread - as long as you are happy that you too may add to your existing knowledge. There really are some immensely experienced folk here.
Absolutely, but if I'm honest this thread put me off a little.
We're now miles off topic. I don't feel the need to discuss what I know but I'm always happy to share. Don't think for a second I don't like to learn. I could give a list of things I've learnt, going way beyond dsp and some simple audio/sampling theory. But why...
If someone want's to start a thread, I might contribute.
however, I don't want to be met with the sort of response along the lines of
'we had this discussion before, back in 2006, Mr Brush in post 554 of topic 9 decreed that 7bits was all you ever need and so that's definitive. End of discussion. You're a fool for bringing it up again. You should know better. Newcomer.'
it's dismissive, probably inaccurate and doesn't bode well for open discussion.
Parting thoughts:
This sort of stuff is discussed relatively openly on other forums (so I'm probably not entirely crazy).
I don't assume any knowledge (or lack-thereof) on people I haven't met - please do the same to me. Some lack of knowledge may end up implied if silly things are said.
If you say 'I don't believe you' to a fellow poster, you're calling them a liar - that's not especially nice.
I've spent some time in front of spectrum analysers and oscilloscopes. Not lately, but I did once upon a time. I can tell you first hand the ear is quite a sensitive instrument. It can pick up on stuff that doesn't really show up on the screen very well in pixel format.
Following on from that, it's probably why there are endless threads about x sounds better than y, when on paper they are about the same, spec-wise.
It's also likely why there are no end of posts containing statements like, specs don't tell you everything, I need to hear it to know for sure.
And endless posts about 'I've just upgraded my DAC/CD player' and it sounds miles better... According to the tail end of this thread, that's all basically crap and we should listen to 12 bit audio files (yes without even quantifying the front end filtering, resampling, noise shaping, dithering, sample rate) - we can actually just be that hand wavy about it, apparently.
When you take all those factors, I think it's important to try and avoid inconsistency and double-standards. And above all, retain an open mind about it.
I wholeheartedly apologise if I somehow offended anyone. Everything I've said has been in good spirits. I'm not slightly, not even 0.1% remotely wound up by this. I see it for what it is. A well intentioned discussion that unfortunately derailed, that happened to occur in the wrong place (for which blame me if you like).
I don't feel I need particularly to discuss it any more, got far more important things to do and learn. However, as I've said, I may contribute to other threads on the matter as and when they arise.
Will I start one myself? Unlikely, not after this. I'd probably rather try and bring forward my dentists appointment, sounds preferable
Above all, have fun. And finally, I never meant anything more than light hearted banter about some things that let's face it, are not that life changing. Sorry if it came over differently. Hopefully I can stick around on here. If not, no worries, life goes on.
LouisB,
have you tried Hydrogen the Audio forum? Mainly serious pro and audio specialists on there.
http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/
have you tried Hydrogen the Audio forum? Mainly serious pro and audio specialists on there.
http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/