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Have dacs changed so much in 10 years.

My observations/assumptions/bias/perhaps failed recollections:

I had a few DACs in the '90s and early 2000s, in these days it was for use with a CD transport (24bit E-transport from dpa or a nice Audiolab 8000 CDM) as streaming was yet to exist at any scale. I used several DACs from dpa/Deltec and as well as a couple of NOS DACs whose details I don't recall. dpa's little bit series was a 'little bit' disappointing to my ears and not the last word in producing dynamics/detail. The PDM series a lot better and to my recollection as good as many of today's kit in the budget/mid range. The later 'pulse array' kit, SX64 and the reference DACs above these were as good as my current Chord Mojo 2 for CD replay but relatively much more expensive.
The measured performance of newer DACs is hugely better than much older kit but does this translate to more pleasurable listening? - that's a whole other thread!
 
NeilK said:
The measured performance of newer DACs is hugely better than much older kit but does this translate to more pleasurable listening? - that's a whole other thread!
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Subjective listening always leads to varied opinions on what sounds “better”. The technology has been mature for so long other than higher bit rates which is debatable whether it’s necessary for home use.
 
JezmondTutu said:
So are you saying that a £200 DAC that uses the same chipset as a £10k will sound the same?
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What do you believe is done differently in a £10k DAC using the same chip that justifies the extra £9,800 ? Specifically what are the extra parts costs for the "superior" bits of the circuit? Because both are going to have a psu, clock, dac, analogue output etc etc
 
Kirk said:
Were DACs that measured well a big thing 10 years ago?
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Define "measured well".

If the question were: Were DACs that measured to a level that human hears can't hear the difference a thing 10 years ago, then the answer is yes.
 
Juancho said:
Unfortunately supposedly vanishing levels of distortion or other measurements doesn't always equate to good sound. And £150 won't get you more than an opamp output stage
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And?

DACs only need to drive 4v with micro amps of current. An opamp is perfectly capable of that, and with distortion levels that no human could ever hear.
 
gez said:
What do you believe is done differently in a £10k DAC using the same chip that justifies the extra £9,800 ? Specifically what are the extra parts costs for the "superior" bits of the circuit? Because both are going to have a psu, clock, dac, analogue output etc etc
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I’m not saying that you can necessarily justify the cost difference. However, all those extra parts are very likely to be of better quality as is the design and implementation of those parts, thus will most likely deliver better sound quality.
 
I can buy a brand new Topping E30 II for about £100 right now. That's equivalent to £65 in 2008 adjusted for inflation. I paid £140 for a the inferior Cambridge Audio DacMagic Azur in 2008. I've done the math for you.

If anyone near Kent has a Chord Dave or similar, they're welcome to pop over and hook it up to my Leak Stereo 20 and 4 ohm Kef Reference monitors and we'll see if we can hear the difference.
 
JezmondTutu said:
Sorry but I just don’t believe a £200 DAC will ever sound the same as a £10k DAC. If a DAC’s performance hinged just on the chipset used then yes it would sound the same. But it doesn’t

Jez
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I wonder if it would be possible to fabricate a £10k DAC in China with identical topology and off-the-shelf ICs, perhaps non-boutique components and a basic case and PSU cheap enough to sell it for 1/50 the price.

As @John Phillips said I suspect that SMSL probably sell 100 or more £200 DACs for each £10k DAC sold by a high-end manufacturer.
 
tuga said:
I wonder if it would be possible to fabricate a £10k DAC in China with identical topology and off-the-shelf ICs, perhaps non-boutique components and a basic case and PSU cheap enough to sell it for 1/50 the price.

As @John Phillips said I suspect that SMSL probably sell 100 or more £200 DACs for each £10k DAC sold by a high-end manufacturer.
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I’m sure China can fabricate most things for not a lot of money. But that ignores all the R&D a small company might invest, the cost of bespoke casing and all the other costs associated with developing and marketing a product, not to mention dealer margins etc.

I’d love someone to send me a £200 DAC that sounds as good as mine and does what I need it to do. I could flog mine and buy something nice with the difference! 😂

I’m not at all adverse to the cheaper option (after all I ran a DIY power amp for years, I use low cost interconnects), but only if it sounds as good or better than the more expensive one. As with most hifi kit, diminishing marginal returns are invariably at play though.
 
There is only so far one can get to in this sort of discussion without running into a question of how you improve on something which has nothing wrong with it. The output of a dac is just a voltage against time per channel. There are not blue voltages, or red voltages or furry voltages or golden voltages, or voltages with a cheeky little smile. You can make a dac sound different by making the output less accurate (as a voltage against time), or inaccurate in a different way, but once it is accurate enough you can't make it sound better by making it more accurate.
It is difficult to find a problem which has not been solved. The last plausible one was inter-sample overs but it was never IMHO that much of a candidate. for the explanation why dacs need to cost 10k
I know that some people do not accept the premise, but equally if you don't accept it then one can only treat electronic components as objects of mystical veneration.
 
My Micromega BS Duo bought at the end of the 1980s is still going strong despite almost daily use since new - I've tried much newer DACs using different sources, but have never found one I like better; nor anything more listenable than the TDA1541 in my Marantz CD player. Even with streamed FLAC files I'm happy to listen to music for hours without the headache-inducing "accuracy" of the latest chips. Hi-res I just don't bother with as I can't hear the difference (yes, I have tried). What is the point of measuring a DAC's output when the ear hears what it does, or does not, like, irrespective of the published figures. So my answer to the question here is, I doubt it, and I really couldn't care less. Investigate more genres of music instead - a DAC of whatever age/.price/build quality can't make the performers perform any better!
 
JezmondTutu said:
I’d love someone to send me a £200 DAC that sounds as good as mine and does what I need it to do. I could flog mine and buy something nice with the difference!
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I have just the thing. Let’s do a proper unsighted test and see where it leads.
 
I have three ESS dacs, one Burr Brown, one TD1541A, one AKM. So all very different, and at different price points with different attention to power supplies, component and build quality. They sound about as different from each other as moving the speakers six inches.
 
tuga said:
I wonder if it would be possible to fabricate a £10k DAC in China with identical topology and off-the-shelf ICs, perhaps non-boutique components and a basic case and PSU cheap enough to sell it for 1/50 the price.

As @John Phillips said I suspect that SMSL probably sell 100 or more £200 DACs for each £10k DAC sold by a high-end manufacturer.
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I suspect quite a few £10k DACs already are this way.

If things still work the way they did back in the 80's (not very likely I grant you), then the chances are high that the £10k DAC costs the manufacturer no more than £2k to produce, and that's including all overheads. Meaning a likely parts cost of considerably less than that. (£500-700 - Including the fancy aluminium casing?).

Throw in economies of scale and it wouldn't surprise me if the parts costs (because now plastic case) is down around £200-250, volume production and low margin and you're looking at comfortably being able to retail at under £1k
 
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