Has the sound quality of audio equipment really got any better?

[Fretbuzz]

Newer to this game than most if not all here, but have found there seems to be a reason why classic designs endure.

 

[Hiesteem]

I am just reading a few old hi-fi mags which I never got round to throwing out. One reviewer praises a pair of speaker for 'capturing the acoustic of the studio with breathtaking accuracy', he is talking about 'True Love Ways' by Buddy Holly. Was he there? He then observes that 'Buddy is placed a little further back than I'm used to'. Somewhat contradictory. I have a very early copy of The Buddy Holly story on vinyl, it was my dad's, hails from the 50's; he is right about the recording being stunning though.

Newer to this game than most if not all here, but have found there seems to be a reason why classic designs endure.

I am interested in what your findings are as to why classic designs endure?

 

[Dozey]

Classic designs are ones that endure by definition.

 

[Tony L]

I am interested in what your findings are as to why classic designs endure?

My guess is that they just date from a less compromised time. These days far too much emphasis is placed on ‘lifestyle’ concerns, e.g. tiny little ported speakers, small cool-running remote control amplifiers etc etc and the whole buyer mindset is largely out of step with the basic requirements of true no-compromise audio reproduction. Go back a few decades and it was accepted that quality sound reproduction required shifting some real air about and that small speakers were exclusively for quiet near-field listening and not suited for filling a large room. As such I’d argue it was a attitude thing and the minority who really care about audio quality above all else will tend to find themselves looking back to the very best of the past where the market priorities were different.

 

[Fretbuzz]

I am interested in what your findings are as to why classic designs endure?

Not least speakers, just find the classic-type design ones I've heard (Audio Note, Tannoys, Rogers, Harbeth, and ProAc if they count) generally, personally, far more natural to listen to than ones with more modern designs and materials. That includes some fairly hyped-up ones I've heard and thought eugh.

Re amps, none have bettered demoes involving various Audio Note and some Quad monoblock valve amps I've heard - surely relatively ancient technology. I say that as a Class D power amp owner! (fab sound in itself but would have valves again if not inconvenient right now).

Even in digital - the nicest sound I've heard from that is from NOS DACs. Wouldn't say that's a classic design thing, but again just reaffirming in my mind it ain't all about the numbers or 'latest technology' etc.

Again, coming in to this relatively recently means none of it is based on any kind of nostalgia - just ears, and believability and emotional connection in the music.

Classic designs are ones that endure by definition

Aye that figures.

 

[Fretbuzz]

My guess is that they just date from a less compromised time. These days far too much emphasis is placed on ‘lifestyle’ concerns, e.g. tiny little ported speakers, small cool-running remote control amplifiers etc etc and the whole buyer mindset is largely out of step with the basic requirements of true no-compromise audio reproduction. Go back a few decades and it was accepted that quality sound reproduction required shifting some real air about and that small speakers were exclusively for quiet near-field listening and not suited for filling a large room. As such I’d argue it was a attitude thing and the minority who really care about audio quality above all else will tend to find themselves looking back to the very best of the past where the market priorities were different.

Agree. Personally though the compromise is more about family-usability (also safety) than just gear footprint. Still got big speakers.

 

[Hiesteem]

Not least speakers, just find the classic-type design ones I've heard (Audio Note, Tannoys, Rogers, Harbeth, and ProAc if they count) generally, personally, far more natural to listen to than ones with more modern designs and materials. That includes some fairly hyped-up ones I've heard and thought eugh.

Re amps, none have bettered demoes involving various Audio Note and some Quad monoblock valve amps I've heard - surely relatively ancient technology. I say that as a Class D power amp owner! (fab sound in itself but would have valves again if not inconvenient right now).

Even in digital - the nicest sound I've heard from that is from NOS DACs. Wouldn't say that's a classic design thing, but again just reaffirming in my mind it ain't all about the numbers or 'latest technology' etc.

Again, coming in to this relatively recently means none of it is based on any kind of nostalgia - just ears, and believability and emotional connection in the music.



Aye that figures.

Thanks for your response and experience. Totally agree about it being an emotional connection to the music. This is how I listen and becomes more of a profound, sensory experience.

 

[Hiesteem]

My guess is that they just date from a less compromised time. These days far too much emphasis is placed on ‘lifestyle’ concerns, e.g. tiny little ported speakers, small cool-running remote control amplifiers etc etc and the whole buyer mindset is largely out of step with the basic requirements of true no-compromise audio reproduction. Go back a few decades and it was accepted that quality sound reproduction required shifting some real air about and that small speakers were exclusively for quiet near-field listening and not suited for filling a large room. As such I’d argue it was a attitude thing and the minority who really care about audio quality above all else will tend to find themselves looking back to the very best of the past where the market priorities were different.

Appreciate your knowledge/experience with classic components Tony and find everyones experience fascinating and would enjoy hearing a good old fashion pair of tannoys pushing some air around the room one day.

 

[S-Man]

I suspect a lot of people like the sound of classic kit because they heard it at a formative age and now have the means to own what they aspired to.

 

[Cereal Killer]

I agree but I look at the issue not from the performance and features PoV but from the defects PoV.

What's more important to me about modern cars and modern audio equipment is that designers and manufacturers have got much better at avoiding annoying defects. Annoying defects are, to me, a key reason to be dissatisfied and to want to upgrade. Avoiding them means more persistent satisfaction.

Modern cars, even mass-market ones, are very refined compared to my first cars.

In loudspeakers for example, the elimination of annoying defects seems to be particularly true at the modest cost level rather than at higher levels where to me the gains have been small. IMHO, only after you have reduced or eliminated the negative qualities can you really appreciate the more positive qualities.

This ^

 

[retrospective]

Not in my experience ..the further i go back the better it gets!

 

[Yank]

I agree but I look at the issue not from the performance and features PoV but from the defects PoV.

What's more important to me about modern cars and modern audio equipment is that designers and manufacturers have got much better at avoiding annoying defects. Annoying defects are, to me, a key reason to be dissatisfied and to want to upgrade. Avoiding them means more persistent satisfaction.

Modern cars, even mass-market ones, are very refined compared to my first cars.

In loudspeakers for example, the elimination of annoying defects seems to be particularly true at the modest cost level rather than at higher levels where to me the gains have been small. IMHO, only after you have reduced or eliminated the negative qualities can you really appreciate the more positive qualities.

There's a fine line between avoiding annoying defects and refining the life out the product.

 

[James]

There's a fine line between avoiding annoying defects and refining the life out the product.

I quite agree. With CAD modelling, for example, it is relatively easy to engineer a totally flat FR in loudspeakers. But that generally means a much more complex crossover network. In my experience, the insertion losses they incur NEVER make up for the loss of joie de vivre that invariably happens. I'd sooner live with an imperfect but totally engaging thing than fool myself into believing freedom from defect means perfection. Because it rarely does.

 

[formbypc]

I hope you're sat down, smelling salts at the ready, it's an LP12

He's had his for 20 years, I'm using the original (apart from cartridge and belt changes) LP12 that I got in the mid-late 1980s. Must look out the receipt and put an exact vintage on it.

 

[monya]

Regards sound quality I’d suggest headphones have come a long way with electrostatics ahead of the pack.

 

[Chris81]

Even in digital - the nicest sound I've heard from that is from NOS DACs.

Which one(s) (especially DACs)?

 

[ian r]

Regards sound quality I’d suggest headphones have come a long way with electrostatics ahead of the pack.

Have you looked back at the electrostatic headphones going back even to the 1970's. Stax being an early mass market option with 4 different electrostatic options at any one time.
but the Germans and Swiss headsets did it with supreme style Beyer, Koss, MicroSeiki. Even more options in the 80's and 90's

 

[Fretbuzz]

Which one(s) (especially DACs)?

Mainly Audio Note (various levels), but also a Lampzator in a demo (lovely). Just seemed to have an organic quality to the sound that I like.

 

[Yank]

I quite agree. With CAD modelling, for example, it is relatively easy to engineer a totally flat FR in loudspeakers. But that generally means a much more complex crossover network. In my experience, the insertion losses they incur NEVER make up for the loss of joie de vivre that invariably happens. I'd sooner live with an imperfect but totally engaging thing than fool myself into believing freedom from defect means perfection. Because it rarely does.

There must be a good middle ground there. I wish for the dynamics and ease that you get with pro-audio based designs such as vintage Altec, JBL, or Klipsch, but I can't live with the aggressive frequency response and power response deviations. On the other hand, I really enjoy the tonality of my Harbeths, but they are dynamically limited.

Some listeners find that joie de vivre in systems like the old classic Linn speakers, but I can't cope with designs with no baffle step that allow the midrange peak to shine through in all its glory. That massive "quack" at 1K may make it easier to tap your foot, but it's an earache for me.

 

[poco a poco]

Here is an article by Peter Qvortrup of Audio Note first written in 1990, but updated a bit where he claims there has been little improvement since the 1930's as gains have been offset by loses a case of peaks cancelled out by dips:
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2018/01/25/peter-qvortrup-high-fidelity-the-decline-of-the-decades/