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Harbeth M40.2, Naim or Accuphase

The more fundamental question is what aspect of your current system are you looking to change ? Is it something to do with actual sound quality, a simple desire to own some different boxes, the need/opportunity to have smaller/bigger loudspeakers, etc, etc ?
 
Aparently Shaw has also "re-balanced" the frequency response:

Now, about the bass. As I mentioned above, the legacy of the M40 (the previous LS5/8) is that of a 'generous' bass which works when the room has sufficient damping, as you would tend to find in a traditional (but not modern, low budget) studio. For the M40.2, just as with the SHL5+, I have rebalanced the entire speaker so that the bass/mid/top frequency response is a flat line. That took every gram of creativity, and to do that with a tight cost constraint has burnt much midnight oil. The re-balancing has two effects: the greater presence takes attention away from the bass and makes the entire presentation more engaging and in reality, the speaker will work fine in just about any environment now, big or small, spare bedroom upwards, damped or undamped so there is no need to modify your domestic living space to get a really great sound. Of course, the M40.2 is a big box and it's up to you to decide if you can/must/absolutely must! make space for them in your life.

It doesnt look different to me.

1008harH40fig3.jpg

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Actually the port tuning seems to have been raised from 25Hz to 30Hz.
I wonder if that would explain the higher sensitivity.
 
jonnypsvinyl said:
I tried SN3 and HiCap on my P3ESR 40ths, and found it an acceptable combination, but nothing more than that. The SN3 is a good amp but wasn't particularly engaging with the P3ESRs, and didn't have all the drive/energy you'd expect from Naim amplification. Avondale Voyagers (and before that, but to a lesser extent, Vitus RI100) were much better. Much more life and presence - more distinct bass, percussion, scale to voices etc. A much more engaging experience. Not exactly a fair comparison to the SN3 at RRPs (particularly as the Voyagers need a good active pre, I've found) but the common denominator is more power. Harbeths really need a lot of juice to get good control of them. If you buy used there's some great value out there at the moment. The plus side with the Naim is you can easily buy can sell without losing any money. So you could buy and try.

I also think the bare NDX2 at £5k+ new is very poor value. If you want to keep the box count down, I'd consider a used Vitus RI-101 with DAC, which should come in at similar money to the Accuphase and work well with the Harbs. Our if you really want to go with Naim, at least a 250 (although if it was me buying the big Harbs I'd really be wanting a 300..).
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I’ll second that. Had the p3esr with a Naim Superuniti and then a 300DR. None of these amps could get the harbeth to transmit the full dynamic range of the music (and I compared with other speakers). I guess for the 40.2 you need at least 200w or 300w to get them to work as intended.
 
I own some 40.2's and have them hooked up to Accuphase preC2420 and poweramp P4200 and find the combo stunning
Mac
 
chris peacock said:
Had the p3esr with a Naim Superuniti and then a 300DR. None of these amps could get the harbeth to transmit the full dynamic range of the music (and I compared with other speakers).
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I don't mean it in a rude manner but from a technical point of view that cannot be the case because the SU and as well the NAP 300 DR have more power than the P3ESR can handle.That is proofed by measurements from a German hifi magazine.

Also Harbeth writes: Power handling (that is maximum) 50 watt.
https://harbeth.co.uk/hifi-speaker/11/Harbeth-P3ESR-loudspeaker

Even if you double it up to 100 watt, the P3ESR is a 6 Ohm speaker and the SU can deliver up to 114 watt @ 6 Ohm, the NAP 300DR up to 131 watt @ 6 Ohm
 
Old Shatterhand said:
@tuga: If that doesn't look different to you then I can't help you.
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They're not directly comparable, you must make the necessary adjustments.
Stereophile's is listening window averaged over a 30° wide angle, somewhere between the on-axis (red) and 30° (blue) on the Audio plot. The latter has more smoothing. JA uses close-mic'ing below 300Hz with produces the bump you see peaking at 75Hz.
To my eyes the response of the two speakers is very close.
 
Old Shatterhand said:
I don't mean it in a rude manner but from a technical point of view that cannot be the case because the SU and as well the NAP 300 DR have more power than the P3ESR can handle.That is proofed by measurements from a German hifi magazine.
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Thanks for pointing to the German magazine test. This is a very interesting result but I didn’t read it, do you have an online link? Assuming the test results are valid, what is the conclusion? Not suitable for music with a good dynamic range?
 
Hi @seadog7 -- I also think that Naim would be a better match for the Harbs.

However, I'd reallocate your budget away from the NDX2 and toward a 282/250 setup. Excellent digital performance can be had for far less money than the NDX2 -- your streamer of choice, running Roon, plus any of the high-rated DACs on Audio Science Review (I use the RME ADI-2, personally) will get the job done. The Matrix Audio devices they've tested lately seem pretty tasty (see here), though it's not really necessary to spend that much.
 
chris peacock said:
Thanks for pointing to the German magazine test. This is a very interesting result but I didn’t read it, do you have an online link? Assuming the test results are valid, what is the conclusion? Not suitable for music with a good dynamic range?
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Small speakers with small woofers have very limited maximum SPL and low frequency extension.
The former can be somewhat mitigated by listening nearfield and you can add the bass extenders or a pair of powered subwoofers to overcome the lack of sub-bass.
Powered subs have the added bonus of raising the SPL ceiling.

To answer your question, the P3s are not really suitable for playing loud; they're suited to small rooms and/or desktop listening.
 
The NDX2 is an exceptional source and DAC if one can afford it. Its resolution and musicality deserve better than a pair of Harbeths in my experience unless one is into exclusively/mostly vocal, small scale music. This, clearly, is more true for the smaller Harbeths and for the bigger M40 one needs watts and space ... but then there is better, significantly better for similar or less money. My ears, of course.
 
FYI Chris Kelly from TheEar.Net who also runs two of Harbeths user groups uses the Lyngdorf TDAi3400 with his Harbeths. This is considerably cheaper than the Accuphase amp you mention, much more powerful and will give measurably much better sound in your room than the Accuphase or the Naim amp you due to the addition of RoomPerfect.

You can read his review here https://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/lyngdorf-tdai-3400-integrated-amplifier-dac-streamer
 
tuga said:
Small speakers with small woofers have very limited maximum SPL and low frequency extension.
The former can be somewhat mitigated by listening nearfield and you can add the bass extenders or a pair of powered subwoofers to overcome the lack of sub-bass.
Powered subs have the added bonus of raising the SPL ceiling.

To answer your question, the P3s are not really suitable for playing loud; they're suited to small rooms and/or desktop listening.
Click to expand...
Thanks Tuga, I was not listening loud, maybe around 65 dB but that should be enough to transmit the full DR. I also listened to the 30.2 (at a dealer so not in my usual room) and compared with other speakers, same issue with the full DR not being transmitted. If I remember correctly the dealer used a Naim SN2 for the demo.
 
chris peacock said:
Thanks Tuga, I was not listening loud, maybe around 65 dB but that should be enough to transmit the full DR. I also listened to the 30.2 (at a dealer so not in my usual room) and compared with other speakers, same issue with the full DR not being transmitted. If I remember correctly the dealer used a Naim SN2 for the demo.
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65dB at the listening spot is quite low. A very quiet room has a noise floor of around 25-30dB.
But I find that the amplifier plays a major role in the low level resolution of a hi-fi system. I don't know anything about the SN2 so I can't really help you there.
 
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