Grand Master Flash NCC200 build

[shoom]

Hi Keith

Good move.

My pair are really enjoying the extra drive and are sounding much more like the ones that I remember at College (with active Brystons). Though not especially sensitive to room placement I’ve found that they don’t much care for being toed in too far and only need just a slight nudge towards the listener. Ssssssibulance results from being pointed at the listener I’ve found.

So after a few days if intensive burn in the NCC’s have improved still further especially in the bass department which the PMC’s just love.

I may fit the VBE over the weekend as curiosity is starting to get the better of me.

Sounding great all the same.

 

[shoom]

So the curiosity bug bit and I’ve fitted my first VBE this morning.

Two points of note.

1) The DC offset went up a little and is now @60mv which was expected due to the increased front end voltage. Am I worried? Nope it’s still just fine.

2) The back end bias current dropped to 28ma from the original 35ma so it looks like my front end is consuming 7ma quietescent current.

After reading this Acoustica article I decided 28ma was fine and allows enough margin for thermal stability. I’ll see what measured results I get from the second amp and report back.

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/t/naim/bias.html

 

[shoom]

So where to start?

Just to be clear comparing the NCC200 pre and post VBE is not meant to imply that the NCC on it’s is not a great amp.

But IMHO with the VBE fitted the sound has improved in every way.

The first thing that was immediately obvious was that the bass went deeper and felt more solid. Also it seemed more dynamic and tight leading to a more tuneful representation of what was being played.

The overall presentation seems to be gripped much more tightly with improved imaging (yup some think that imaging is ''just an illusion'' but hey that’s why stereo replay was developed). Singers seem to be pushed out further from a soundstage that had increased in width and depth which gave a much better representation and scale. It also sounds a little faster and more able to keep pace with some of my more rhythmically complex recordings.

Also I noticed that the tonal quality seemed richer and more ‘’real’’ which was nice to hear given that some regs can have the opposite effect tending to dry things out too much.

I was so relieved to find that the voicing of the amp remains unchanged and still retains the music first approach that I like so much. It never drifts into that etched sound that I spoke about earlier.

Nope same amp just soooo much more of it.

Here is the amp with Ken’s VBE fitted.

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Thanks Ken.

Great work Les.

Pace, Rhythm and Timing in SPADES.

WITH GRIP, GRIP, GRIP. and more grip on the music.

 

[shoom]

Hi All

Here’s a picture of the NCC200 Voyagers installed in the Lack Rack (made to enjoy the music method spiked with sand filled legs)

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Top – NAS Space deck with heavy graphite platter and Poul Ladergaards air tone arm. Lyra Dorian.
2nd down –Paradise phono preamp- lovely
3rd Baffalo3, Legato, Teleporter.
4th Muses Volco (waiting for the new front panel) sitting on JMB Labs Alpha20 line stage (yup new front panel needed for that also)
5th Les’s lovely Voyagers.

Excuse the lack of decoration as we a still renovating this part of the house.

Sounding just sublime.

 

[Suffolk Tony]

That looks lovely Mr Shoom!

 

[shoom]

Thanks Mr T

A bit sparce though.

i'll need to fill it up a little more.

 

[shoom]

Hi All

I’ve had a nice lazy Sunday morning listening session with music that fits the mood nicely.

So maybe time to put a little flesh on the bones SQ wise.

So with my system, to my ears and IMHO.

Here are some snippets through the buffalo.

Dusty Springfield-Son of a preacher-Dusty in Memphis.

Wow what a funky bass line which these amps kept in perfect time with the rest of the performance. The vocals where so sweet and well projected in front of rasping brass and urgent syncopation. As usual the soul of the performance shone through.

Just so musical.

Just lovely.

Jimmy Smith-Got my mojo workin’-the incredible Jimmy Smith.

What drive and verve this piece now has.

The enthusiasm of the performers really shines through as does jimmies Jazz Hammond. I also noticed how the bass line was now driving the music on. Made for a pretty infectious sound which even had my good lady wife dancing.

A great demonstration of P.R.A.T

When I sit down to listen to music I’ve usually got my HIFI head on, you know the one I’m sure. How’s the imaging? What’s the tone like? Well with these amps that lasts about 10 seconds before just sitting back and enjoying the sweet music.

I’m impressed.

 

[Col]

AHA A BLUES MAN
i See Shaun

 

[shoom]

so far yes but more to come

 

[337alant]

love the Dusty link , I have the Dusty in Memphis LP and its excellent.
Try George Benson Songs and Stories and Ben Harper Welcome to the Cruel World
Alan

 

[shoom]

love the Dusty link , I have the Dusty in Memphis LP and its excellent.
Try George Benson Songs and Stories and Ben Harper Welcome to the Cruel World
Alan

Hi Alan

You were not wrong about this amp.

It’s superb and the VBE represents a nice stride forward as you are about to find out with your build.

Glad that you talked enough sense into me to build it.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the VBE.

The Dusty track is one of my favourites from Memphis and the soulfulness of the performance really shines through. But that album is crammed full of goodies and great for the Sunday morning wake up.

It certainly now has the funk through the new amps.


But

I’ll be posting a little more music as I go just to give a point of reference to my sound quality comments.

But be warned

This is the mellower end of my records.

 

[orangeart]

Glad you're getting so much from it.

 

[shoom]

Hi Stefan

TBH I'd have never tried this sort of amp in the past but I'm really glad that I've had my mind expanded. Nothing I’ve heard in the commercial world persuaded me that this sort of topology could be what I was looking for. But the NCC200/Voyager seems to do things a little differently from the DRY, Etched and soul less sounding solid state ‘’HIFI’’ that I’ve listened to up to now.

Puts the music first IMHO.

SO

On to the vinyl.

I’d previously had a very quick listen to my Vinyl replay system just to make sure that all was well but today I had my first ‘’real listen.

I usually go digital for the making sure that all is working but vinyl is my preferred medium.

NAS Spacedeck with heavy graphite platter and Poul Ladergaards air tone arm, Lyra Dorian.

And the lovely Paradise phono stage. This phono stage is the quietest I’ve heard noise wise and sounds truly special.

So a proper listen to my Radiohead collection.

Creep-180g greatest hits.

just stunning

The music just gushed out with real subtlety and poise. The superior timing capabilities of the Voyager held every part of the performance in perfect harmony. Vocals are well projected but maintained proper size in the soundstage with no singing dwarf or land of the giant’s effects. This is the best I’ve heard this records sound in my system by far. The dynamic contrast was just to die for.

Real power when needed combined with subtlety and grace.

Made a great tune just jaw droppingly good.

And

Atoms for peace-Default-Amok just the best work that Thom Yorke has produced since Radiohead.

This sounded so clean and powerful with the deep bass line perfectly delivered. The complex rhythmic patterns sounding crisp and clear. Vocals again perfectly resolved especially the reverb effects which just seem to melt back into a deep soundstage forever.

I’ve been around audio replay for quite a few years now and not much surprises me anymore.

But this was jaw dropping.

The best I’ve heard my turntable sound full stop.

 

[shoom]

Hi All

It’s been 14 days now since switch on and the amps just seem to keep getting better. I’ve noticed a top to bottom improvement with the top end and mids sounding more open and explicit but no etched sounding headache.

And the bass

Woooaaa it seems to go deeper and sounds a little faster but is still so tuneful and exact (Tight and rhythmic).

Looks like Alan got that right they do get better over the first few weeks.

So I’d urge anyone thinking of building the NCC200 to build dual mono if space allows and also to leave enough room for fitting the VBE’s as they make a large difference to the SQ.

It’s my first time with wet Tants or any other type of Tant for that matter and I must say that they sound really good to my ears.

I've stuck with 2x gain in the line stage but that’s only because of the 1.5V OP from the Buffalo/Legato. A trickle of gain helps that along and also the Paradise which strangely enough sounds a smidge louder than the Legato to my ears.

I’m pretty sure that anyone with 2V OP front ends are only going to need a passive to drive this amp. TBH I like a little gain with my pre’s if I can but it may not be needed here.

But

Yup having a ball.

 

[337alant]

Shaun,
Glad to hear your enjoying your amps.
I'm using a passive pre with a stereo NCC200 amp in my workshop and it sounds Fab.
My B4 has no gain and the only source I have a problem with lack of gain is my paradise Phono .
Did a dummy layout with the R-cores for my mono blocks and the 500Va is huge , however I ordered the 400mm deep cases so there should be enough space for everything.
Knocked up a couple of front end cap6 boards with 4700uf x 100v caps and just used 4.7 ohm 3W resistors to keep the voltage drop out as low as possible.

Alan

 

[Col]

Good to here Shaun
Gives me confidence to press on with the part list for my NCC 200 Ordering up all Transistors on Monday just trying to read up on the amp for now
I will be building monoblocks

I have a pair of 300VA 0-25-0-25v from another project I want to use save some cost
I don’t need the full rms wattage of the amp 25/30 watts would do me fine speaker loads from 6 ohms 90/93db horns and 8ohms 89db warfdale 8.2s

 

[shoom]

Shaun,
Glad to hear your enjoying your amps.
I'm using a passive pre with a stereo NCC200 amp in my workshop and it sounds Fab.
My B4 has no gain and the only source I have a problem with lack of gain is my paradise Phono .
Did a dummy layout with the R-cores for my mono blocks and the 500Va is huge , however I ordered the 400mm deep cases so there should be enough space for everything.
Knocked up a couple of front end cap6 boards with 4700uf x 100v caps and just used 4.7 ohm 3W resistors to keep the voltage drop out as low as possible.

Alan

Hi Alan

The amps are sounding great and still improving with time. I’ve pretty chuffed with it all in all. From what I’ve read the wet Tants take a while to form but the SQ especially with the Paradise is awesome.

I’m pretty sure that the small amount of gain is helping a little but I’ll try my DCB1 in front and see what happens. I’ll keep you posted on that but the Paradise with 2x gain goes stupidly loud at about ½ way around the pot (I’ll have a look at the Muses display for a more accurate attenuation level. TBH the OP level I’m getting from the P seems to be on the high side for a phono pre but I’ll try the passive to be sure.

BTW I forgot to mention that the amp ran even quieter after the VBE were fitted and now I need to wear the speakers like headphones to hear a slight hisssss. That could also explain the increase in fine detail that I’m hearing now.

500VA Rcores.

Now that sounds like a real build.

And one that demands lots of photos and constant build updates IMHO.

I’m looking forward to having your thoughts on the sound and more so about the effect of going from a single trafo to monoblocks.

Those Modu cases are really nice and well worth the cash. Just a little help with handling the weight is all that’s needed.

I used 4.7R 5W for my front end and which seems to be a good value.

So not a cheap build by any means but still as you said at the start, it’s stupidly good for the price.

Money well spent.

So now a subjective question. (Stupid question 9 I think)

Taking the inductors out of the back end PSU.

I’d love to hear some thoughts on any sound changes with that done.

I’m in two minds about that mod as the bass I’m getting is first class already but just curious.

I think that I may Mundorf AG the final caps and leave the chokes in. The bass is very, very good and more so with the VBE fitted.

I’d be interested to hear people’s opinion on that especially what happens to bass speed.

So

Onwards and upwards Alan

 

[337alant]

Shaun
Re the output inductors I can only comment in removing them from my Hackernap amp
Occasionally on multiple big transients I noticed the amp loosing control mainly with bass depth and impact, not significantly but still there.
With the inductors removed this improved significantly.
With an NCC200 without a front end supply I wouldn't do it and if your happy with the bass then just leave well alone as the additional ripple filtering should be beneficial

Alan

 

[shoom]

Good to here Shaun
Gives me confidence to press on with the part list for my NCC 200 Ordering up all Transistors on Monday just trying to read up on the amp for now
I will be building monoblocks

I have a pair of 300VA 0-25-0-25v from another project I want to use save some cost
I don’t need the full rms wattage of the amp 25/30 watts would do me fine speaker loads from 6 ohms 90/93db horns and 8ohms 89db warfdale 8.2s

Hi Colin

Mono blocks are a good way to go if you have space IMHO just out of curiosity bread boarding first. (I got banned from that after the cat incident)? If not then try for some slightly larger cases for the VBE later. (It’s well worth the effort)

25-30W would be monstrous with the horns. What drive unites are you using in those beasties?

I have some Fostex 167 with super T’s knocking around somewhere which I used OB. I was thinking of trying the Frugals with those but the wood work had me running for cover.

Looking forward to your build.

 

[shoom]

Shaun
Re the output inductors I can only comment in removing them from my Hackernap amp
Occasionally on multiple big transients I noticed the amp loosing control mainly with bass depth and impact, not significantly but still there.
With the inductors removed this improved significantly.
With an NCC200 without a front end supply I wouldn't do it and if your happy with the bass then just leave well alone as the additional ripple filtering should be beneficial

Alan

Hi Alan

Thanks for your thoughts on the inductor thing and good advice.

Those inductors are definitely needed for the NCC200 and I’d not even consider removing them without the split FE/BE supplies.

More than happy with the bass quality and quantity and so are the PMC which seem to love the extra drive and grip.