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Grammar Schools?

stephen bennett said:
It's not rocket science—look an other countries who are like us culturally and import the best idea. So that will be Finnish comprehensive education.:confused:

Personally, I'm not against streaming in schools for academic, technical and/or vocational skills. But in a single school, you can move between streams—try moving to a Grammar at 13 when you suddenly discover you are academically gifted after all.
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I agree. Just listening to May's address on Radio5 - a great diversity of schools (including faith schools) will best educate all children - what tosh. It honestly sounds like the Tories are trying to take the UK back to pre-EU "glory" years.
 
We need a viable opposition now more than ever.

The agenda being pushed right now (with the emphasis on right) is quite disgusting.

One party to represent social justice - one to represent inequality and greed.
 
According to Clegg, Osborne and Cameron attacked welfare because those well disposed to voting Conservative wanted them too—thus they lost no votes.

May appears to be in the process of annoying middle-class voters whose kids will not get into Grammars if she's successful in increasing the number of children from low-income families and on welfare in those same schools.

I'm assuming that, like her inaugural speech, no-one will believe she's serious, so it doesn't really matter what she says.

Stephen
 
Don't forget the conservatives one their electorate. They've been very successful for over 100 year in getting elected.

Could you expand on the Finnish system please (I take it it's not Lucy Clayton)? If it's one that requires investment then look at the party that keeps being elected in and what thru do with our money!!
 
The Mash nails it, as usual.

I usually prefer data to anecdote, but since this government clearly value personal experiences from 40 years ago over any evidence to the contrary I feel I might be permitted to share one.

My best buddy in infants failed his 11+. Fortunately we were in the first year of the new comprehensive school that replaced the local grammar and secondary modern. Buddy went on to study Medicine at Oxford. Segregating pupils at 11 fails many, especially slower-developing boys.

Grammar schools may superficially appear to be meritocratic but there is copious evidence that they will do nothing for bright but disadvantaged and everything for the moderately clever middle-class.
 
Today's newspaper strapline seems to be "all schools to be allowed to select."

Now any one can see the absurdity of that proposition.

At some point some institution is going to have to be told "you take these pupils whether you like it of not" otherwise we are going to have a large number of kids not getting educated at all!
 
fay spook said:
Don't forget the conservatives one their electorate. They've been very successful for over 100 year in getting elected.

Could you expand on the Finnish system please (I take it it's not Lucy Clayton)? If it's one that requires investment then look at the party that keeps being elected in and what thru do with our money!!
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FS

Worth a read—and they come at the top of international metric tables. Have a Google. And Finns are really nice and successful—it can be done!

OT—I have just bought my first Eurorack module.:D

Stephen
 
Bob McC said:
Today's newspaper strapline seems to be "all schools to be allowed to select."

Now any one can see the absurdity of that proposition.

At some point some institution is going to have to be told "you take these pupils whether you like it of not" otherwise we are going to have a large number of kids not getting educated at all!
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Exactly right.

I don't understand how this absurdity is allowed to go unchallenged.

Grammar school select the top 10% -20% of the ability range. Therefore 80% are not selected.

When talking about selection, why is the question, what about those NOT selected ever addressed.

If all schools are allowed to select, then 80% of kids will not get an education at all.

Regardless of how you play with percentages, the question remains, what about those not selected?
 
From what I hear on the radio about this and most other subjects if a return to Grammar schools would produce supposedly knowledgeable pundits who are able to answer a question other than by starting "So, ........." I would be all in favour.
 
stephen bennett said:
FS

Worth a read—and they come at the top of international metric tables. Have a Google. And Finns are really nice and successful—it can be done!

OT—I have just bought my first Eurorack module.:D

Stephen
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A great read. I know a few Finns and agree they are lovely. I am very interested in the less is more philosophy in work as well as education. I work in an American company with a typical high-pressure environment and there is no doubt most folks work way too hard at the expense of their home life.
 
This may have been covered before, but there are 2 big issues IMO regarding Grammar schools.

Firstly, testing at 11 years is not a very reliable guide to academic performance even 6 or 7 years later. Better off families will employ tutors to 'hot house' their kids and therefor skew the results in favour of the middle classes.

Secondly, by depriving the comprehensives of the generally more able, these schools do less well in terms of academic performance and their whole school ethos suffers. Peer pressure among pupils makes a difference to academic standards of a school.
 
gassor said:
This may have been covered before, but there are 2 big issues IMO regarding Grammar schools.

Firstly, testing at 11 years is not a very reliable guide to academic performance even 6 or 7 years later. Better off families will employ tutors to 'hot house' their kids and therefor skew the results in favour of the middle classes.

Secondly, by depriving the comprehensives of the generally more able, these schools do less well in terms of academic performance and their whole school ethos suffers. Peer pressure among pupils makes a difference to academic standards of a school.
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Just hold those thoughts and then try to reconcile the contradictions.
 
Bob McC said:
Today's newspaper strapline seems to be "all schools to be allowed to select."

Now any one can see the absurdity of that proposition.

At some point some institution is going to have to be told "you take these pupils whether you like it of not" otherwise we are going to have a large number of kids not getting educated at all!
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I think you're erecting a straw man and imposing your memories of the 11+ as the sole definition of 'selection'.

I think there's a big problem right now with catchment areas and good schools, which excludes those who cannot afford to live in the right place from getting in, regardless of merit. There's nothing less edifying than the middle classes with their elbows out. It's what drives the ridiculous tutor market for the 11+ in the areas it still exists, which are very few nowadays.

Most school admissions policies seem to be straightforward calculations, catchment, sibling, SEN, distance until the school is full. In the next door county, which operates 11+, this applies equally. The only difference is that if you 'pass' the 11+ you can also apply to the grammar schools with a chance of getting in.

If they were allowed to be selective in their entry criteria then they could take a child who has lived just outside catchment all their life and attended one of the local junior schools in favour of a child who's parents shipped them in for the 11+ and bought an accommodation address in catchment before school applications had to be made.

Which I think might be a good thing regardless of academic selection arguments.

Paul
 
fay spook said:
I thinks it's if judging people at 11 being unreliable how do you know you've deprived the company of the most able students.

I also think this was an 11+ question from 1984
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.and if the middle class kids only get in because they have been hothoused to pass then they are probably no brighter than the ones who fail and go to the comp...
 
In the old days, the very top eleven year olds got a scholarship to public school. Is that not an option anymore with the 11 Plus?
 
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