Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
When fed by a 400Hz low-pass filter, how "fast" does a woofer need to be?
Graham Audio LS5/9
- Thread starter vln
- Start date
When fed by a 400Hz low-pass filter, how "fast" does a woofer need to be?
Martyn Miles
pfm Member
I love the idea of a fast midrange.
Peter_Tos
pfm Member
Take the speed of the Klipsch Cornwall bass driver as an example
S-Man
StrivingON
What is the speed of this bass driver? What are the units of measurement?
Peter_Tos
pfm Member
My own ears, of course. Listen to how fast and lively the Klipsch Cornwall bass is. And it works in spite of the cheap Klipsch components and drivers.
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
Bass isn't fast. Perhaps a bass instrument can sound fast, but that's because of its high frequency harmonics.
Do you think you can hear the difference between a "slow" woofer and a "fast" woofer if listened to alone through a low-pass filter? (i.e. with the mid and tweeter disconnected)
Do you think you can hear the difference between a "slow" woofer and a "fast" woofer if listened to alone through a low-pass filter? (i.e. with the mid and tweeter disconnected)
Peter_Tos
pfm Member
The bass can be articulate and fast, or it can be sluggish and slow. It's a matter of the characteristics of the bass driver itself, the volume of the box it runs in, and the crossover.
What you write about is called psychoacoustics. You are describing a case where the lack of sub-bass and the lift in the upper bass creates a sense of speed. But check with EQ, it won't work that way with the Harbeth. I tried it.
Ayya Khema
pfm Member
so are you stating that the speed of a bass driver doesnt exist?
you should read my post back a couple page back
Peter_Tos
pfm Member
I can't find an answer to this question. Why did Graham Audio's marketers decide that Derek Hughes' speaker design was worth more than Alan Shaw's design? Derek Hughes has been designing speakers for a long time. But all of his previous work has always been considered a compromise compared to Harbeth and has always cost less. In our world of market economics, it's rare for the best thing to cost less than the worse thing. For example, Derek Hughes used to make Stirling ls3/6s. But those speakers were always cheaper than the Harbeth SH5plus and sold much worse. Then Derek worked at Spendor, but his Spendor sp1/2 always cost less than the Harbeth SHL5plus and was considered less among audiophiles as a less prestigious option than the Harbeth. Derek's concept of sound hasn't changed since then, so why should Graham now cost more than Harbeth. The Graham speakers, like all of Derek's previous work in Stirling and Spendor, I hear a crooked tonal balance, there is a lack of lower midrange and bass. Nothing has changed in this time, but it now costs more and is considered better than the Harbeth. The wonders of marketing.
Ayya Khema
pfm Member
I agree 100%
ive listened to a pair of 4k Graham ls35a and thought the 1k P3esr used sounded better
Peter_Tos
pfm Member
Harbeth P3ESR XD - £2,635
Harbeth SHL5PLUS XD - £5,295
Harbeth M40.3 XD - £17,795
Graham ls3/5 - £3,890
Graham ls8/1 - £9,424
Graham ls5/5 - £20,988
Prices in the UK
Peter_Tos
pfm Member
Derek Hughes' version will always have less bottom middle and bass. His speakers always sound brighter than Alan Shaw's when comparing similar models.
Chris81
pfm Member
No, measurements will proof you wrong at least with the LS5/9 vs the M30.2 X.D. and the LS 5/5 vs. the M40.2..
Allaboutmusic
pfm Member
Thanks, that’s interesting, didn’t realise it was a 8 inch driver for the mid which seems big tbh, I assumed they used a 6 inch or possibly the one from the P3s. You could then use a hi pass filter on the shl5 and use a couple of subwoofers and get a very good sound, as you would still have the super tweeters. A NAD M10 v2 which has lo and hi pass filters and Dirac could work very well, not as elegant as the M40s though but a fraction of the cost.
Peter_Tos
pfm Member
Interesting things Alan Shaw said not long ago in his lectures on YouTube. In particular, he talks about how to properly estimate the frequency response graph. Judging from my observations on the forums, most people don't know what is critical and will be heard on this graph and what doesn't matter to our hearing. Also, There are his opinions on the HUG forum about how marketers tweak the graph to please the customer. So I trust only my ears. If I owned an anechoic camera, I would trust the graphs I made myself.No, measurements will proof you wrong at least with the LS5/9 vs the M30.2 X.D. and the LS 5/5 vs. the M40.2..
With all that said, I have not yet started the topic of driver cone sound, which will not be seen in the graph. Paper, Radial, Kevlar or plastic sound differently. Each of them contributes a different coloring.
Peter_Tos
pfm Member
When we talk about the lack of low middle and bass we start talking about the range of frequencies, which can not be measured without an anechoic chamber. Therefore, the objectivity of an anechoic chamber-less measurement is very low, because the measurement of long sound waves is done with software tricks, not live. This will always produce a large error.So measurements from the same magazine aren't a reliable source to you? If you perceive it in that way like you told it above I wouldn't longer trust my ears.
BTW: A.S. has a degree in marketing so everything he is saying have to be taken with a pinch of salt.
I know Alan is a great marketer, but he is the one who made Harbeth's sound and fame what we know it to be.