Golden Ear Test

[pure sound]

If you hear a system installed, adjusted & demonstrated by an 'expert' and you don't like the way it reproduces music compared with other systems you've heard, how much value does that particular expert's knowledge have for you as an individual?

 

[Steven Toy]

Serge, I'm intrigued to understand what the HiFi crap was that was knocked out of out.

Going back 40 years we were in the early days of CD, Brothers in Arms was being played to death, Linn & Naim had their marketing techniques polluting the industry. Or are you going back a little earlier to the Armstrong / Sugden / Celestion era?

40 years? No. Try 1985. That is 28 years ago.

 

[paul auster]

Serge, I'm intrigued to understand what the HiFi crap was that was knocked out of out.

Going back 40 years we were in the early days of CD, Brothers in Arms was being played to death, Linn & Naim had their marketing techniques polluting the industry. Or are you going back a little earlier to the Armstrong / Sugden / Celestion era?

Clive 40 years ago is 1973 , early days of cd is surely 1984. You nearly made me feel very old for moment

oops just seen Mr Toy beat me to the pedantry .

 

[clivem2]

40 years? No. Try 1985. That is 28 years ago.

Apologies, I didn't get enough sleep last night! So we are talking early 1970s. This I suppose is the Armstrong 600 series era. The LP12 was released in 1972.

 

[pure sound]

CD was launched in 1983.

 

[paul auster]

Making its early days 1984. Brothers in Arms was regrettably released on 13th May 1985.

 

[sq225917]

And I still don't know why it affects it, only now at least I know it does, and how. It's the whys that interest me as much as anything else. I wonder if Nelson Pass or you know why?

S

Well, it's either to do with the angle the cantilever passes through the suspension and the resulting changes in compliance of the suspension, or it's about stylus alignment or it's to do with the non-linearity of the magnetic field at various angle of coil/generator alignment.

My money is on the third seeing how it affects sphercial stylus too.

 

[sergeauckland]

Serge, I'm intrigued to understand what the HiFi crap was that was knocked out of out.

/QUOTE]

It was the early '70s, I started work in 1971. By "HiFi crap" I meant that by the early-mid '70s, magazines were already starting on their subjectivist kick. Paul Messenger, I think, started it. Jean Hiraga and Matti Otala were starting to go on about cables and Transient Intermodulation Distortion respectively, and the LP12 was launched with all the hype that went with it. I was reading the magazines at the time and in 1976 even bought an LP12! (biggest waste of money ever, that was - no better than my Connoisseur BD1)

Fortunately, my colleagues at the time were from a different background, ex BBC, Marconi, Pye, Leever-Rich etc with a competely different point of view from what was becoming fashionable in HiFi circles. I was quite active in the AES in those days and that brought me into contact with "proper" engineers who were rightly sceptical of anything new that didn't have numbers or properly conducted blind listening trials to support it.

For example, TID was shown to be nothing new, just another name for a well known and understood (by some) phenomenon, and cables are still controversial, although even better understood.

I think HiFi now has little to do with audio engineering as the essentials of audio, like low distortions, noise etc etc have been fixed for many years. Now it's all about ME, pleasing the buyer, what it sounds like to ME. Nothing about what the kit does, just how it makes ME feel. Not my way, I still am only interested in kit that works as a tool, no more no less.

S.

 

[jcbrum]

Well, it's either to do with the angle the cantilever passes through the suspension and the resulting changes in compliance of the suspension, or it's about stylus alignment or it's to do with the non-linearity of the magnetic field at various angle of coil/generator alignment.

My money is on the third seeing how it affects sphercial stylus too.

Some of those are relevant, but it's actually about an understanding of the difference between weight and mass.

(hint: a stereo record has a v-groove)


JC

 

[h.g.]

and the LP12 was launched with all the hype that went with it. I was reading the magazines at the time and in 1976 even bought an LP12! (biggest waste of money ever, that was - no better than my Connoisseur BD1)

My recollection, which may well be wrong, was that the LP12 was a normal turntable for a few years and then "subjective reviews" turned into a desirable magical one?

 

[clivem2]

Serge, I'm intrigued to understand what the HiFi crap was that was knocked out of out.

/QUOTE]

It was the early '70s, I started work in 1971. By "HiFi crap" I meant that by the early-mid '70s, magazines were already starting on their subjectivist kick. Paul Messenger, I think, started it. Jean Hiraga and Matti Otala were starting to go on about cables and Transient Intermodulation Distortion respectively, and the LP12 was launched with all the hype that went with it. I was reading the magazines at the time and in 1976 even bought an LP12! (biggest waste of money ever, that was - no better than my Connoisseur BD1)

Fortunately, my colleagues at the time were from a different background, ex BBC, Marconi, Pye, Leever-Rich etc with a competely different point of view from what was becoming fashionable in HiFi circles. I was quite active in the AES in those days and that brought me into contact with "proper" engineers who were rightly sceptical of anything new that didn't have numbers or properly conducted blind listening trials to support it.

For example, TID was shown to be nothing new, just another name for a well known and understood (by some) phenomenon, and cables are still controversial, although even better understood.

I think HiFi now has little to do with audio engineering as the essentials of audio, like low distortions, noise etc etc have been fixed for many years. Now it's all about ME, pleasing the buyer, what it sounds like to ME. Nothing about what the kit does, just how it makes ME feel. Not my way, I still am only interested in kit that works as a tool, no more no less.

S.

Thank you, it's useful to understand the era and issues that started you down your path.

 

[paul auster]

And the fact he as had the same philosophy for 40 years !!!!!!!!!! Far to much invested in it serge .

 

[sergeauckland]

And the fact he as had the same philosophy for 40 years !!!!!!!!!! Far to much invested in it serge .

Yes, it's hard to give up a lifetime's work, but I would be happy to do it if I found a better way. As I said before the Mk1 ear hasn't changed in perhaps tens of thousands of years, so what we hear and how is as good now as it was 40+ years ago.

S.

 

[Richard Kimber]

Although a fair bit has changed in 40 years, the Mk1 ear hasn't nor what can and can't he heard.

S

You're very fortunate. Most people's hearing will not be as good after 40 years.

- Richard.

 

[hammeredklavier]

I can still hear a midgen over 17 kHz at 37...

 

[clivem2]

I can still hear a midgen over 17 kHz at 37...

Is that 37 years after you got into hifi at say 18? That makes you about 55. 17k is good.

 

[hammeredklavier]

Is that 37 years after you got into hifi at say 18? That makes you about 55.

No, I'm 37 now. I didn't check my hearing when I was younger so I'm not sure how much it's deteriorated over the years.

 

[Mikas]

I could hear 20kHz at my twenties. I believe I was able to go a little bit beyond that in fact, because I could hear some motion detectors. I haven't a clue of what frequency that was.
Now at 51, I need some serious dBs to be able to hear 17kHz.

Michael

 

[sergeauckland]

You're very fortunate. Most people's hearing will not be as good after 40 years.

- Richard.

Yes indeed, my hearing has dropped off in line with my years. I've always been careful with my hearing, not too many loud gigs in my youth and I always wear ear defenders if I use power tools, but nevertheless, anno domini.

When in my teens I could hear just over 20kHz, now 14kHz which at 63 isn't bad, but clearly isn't what it used to be.

However, the training in what to listen for, in terms of what different problems sound like, fortunately doesn't need excellent HF hearing. I can't hear harmonic distortion above 7kHz, but intermod is still audible even if it's caused by two (to me) inaudible 19 & 20kHz tones. As there's a mathematical relationship between harmonic and intermodulation distortion, it still matters even to me.

S.

 

[Brian]

I don't know why but I just downloaded Simon's ABX comparator thingy. I'll see what it does but I don't for the life of me understand how I'm going to get any benefit from this comparator when I couldn't tell the difference in the AB test.

I'll make sure my wife is out when I start listening with this comparator otherwise I'm certain she'll have me off to see the doc in very short time.