Getting the best out of a Rega DAC (or any Dac)?

[Steven Toy]

Oh Steven, the irony in that statement, but you can't see it, you silly sod

It's that orthodoxy versus experience thing again.

One is believing what you are told to hear, the other is acknowledging what you may hear.

Only one allows you to exercise your own judgement and not put the cart before the horse.

You can't be brainwashed if you are just listening and with an open mind. This isn't a belief system. A belief system is to deny your own experience and put faith in your god, guru or salesman.

 

[maxflinn]

It's that orthodoxy versus experience thing again.

One is believing what you are told to hear, the other is acknowledging what you may hear.

Only one allows you to exercise your own judgement and not put the cart before the horse.

You can't be brainwashed if you are just listening and with an open mind. This isn't a belief system. A belief system is to deny your own experience and put faith in your god, guru or salesman.

Says the man who will buy and pay £500 to upgrade each and every new product that John Westlake puts his name to for the rest of his life

 

[Steven Toy]

Says the man who will buy and pay £500 to upgrade each and every new product that John Westlake puts his name to for the rest of his life

Not before going to his lab in the Czech Republic (just under 1000 miles from here) and doing some listening to L1/"Sovereign" modifications versus unmodified. My first upgrade was free. It was also reversible

Did you even cross the Irish Sea....?

Will AVI modify your existing speakerettes or will you have to junk them and buy new ones when they attempt to improve on perfection?

 

[maxflinn]

Not before going to his lab in the Czech Republic (just under 1000 miles from here) and doing some listening to L1/"Sovereign" modifications versus unmodified. My first upgrade was free. It was also reversible

Did you even cross the Irish Sea....?

Will AVI modify your existing speakerettes or will you have to junk them and buy new ones when they attempt to improve on perfection?

I'd have took one of Flatpopely's switch boxes and a dozen golden eared objectivists with me, but I fear we'd have been stopped at the border and took into a dark room where a bald headed man stroking a cat would have said - wot eez youa bezzyness wid mista westlake

 

[whatsnext]

It's all very well saying a person needs to go and demo etc, but there are some instances where doing so is pointless.

For example, I don't care how many home cinema buffs tell me that their £200 HDMI cable makes blacks deeper and motion better on their big HDTV, I know that that is simply not possible, so I wouldn't waste my time.

I also know that no digital cable - no matter how much money it cost - or what any expert reviewer may have said about it - can make sound quality better, or worse, or different in any way to another digital cable, so again, I wouldn't waste my time.

No method of digital data transfer can improve sound quality either, and no method can degrade it in any way that doesn't cause an obvious failure, so you can't get more clarity, a wider soundstage, or better dynamics from using one form of data transfer over another, so again, I wouldn't waste my time.

What I would say is good luck to anyone who chooses to believe differently, if they trust their ears and so deduce that the above isn't reality for them, and that makes them derive more enjoyment from the hobby, then happy days.

But please don't tell me that I need to suspend reality, and go listen for non-exsistent differences so that I'll have more experience. I don't need experience of listening for something imaginary.

Max

It's clear virtually everyone who has posted to you Tony, Mods and the lowest of the low, except me and the quiet few questions anything you say because you have not tested your opinion against experience.

Being amongst a group of believers in itself brings a certain pressure I appreciate. It would be hard to comfortablely say sorry guys I cannot heard what you think you can.

BUT your credibility is undermined until you have shared the time/space experience of one of those who enjoy trying to educate/enlighten you. It's almost like a membership requirement, an accreditation.

I find I prefer to experience things in my own time and space. Perhaps the mob can recommend something you can do in your time/space equivalent to the group experience. It would have to be something they know works in your environment not just a generic belief. Surely such an august body can devise something. If these heard differences are only audible on some system most people do not use or aspire to then, whatever the hearers hear is academic. I suspect this is the case as most posts on the subject are more like debating society indulgences rather than statements of fact.

John K seems like a decent guy and actually makes things as opposed to uses and has opinions on things. If distance isn't much of a problem perhaps he can give you a one to one demonstration so you can see what he means, it MAY extend your understanding which can only be a good thing. Then you will have appeased the mob and be wiser.

Best of luck

 

[jirij]

His basic point is a good one, though. I mean - if DACs really sound different based on very slight differences of the light intensity coming via Toslink (making different Toslink cables sound different), then there's something very, very, *very* wrong with the DACs.

Wrong to the point of me making them either not use them or not care about such differences.

Same could be said for HDMI - both the actual data input and output are of digital nature, 24bit color representations (AFAIK) for each pixel, easily measurable on both sides, but if some cable interference influences the analog control signal transfer to the pixels themselves so much that it can be spotted, then something is very, *very* wrong with the TV.

I'd rather buy one of those professional NEC MultiSync displays with automatic color correction device on a robotic hand rather than spending an equivalent amount of money on an HDMI cable anyway.

 

[maxflinn]

Max

It's clear virtually everyone who has posted to you Tony, Mods and the lowest of the low, except me and the quiet few questions anything you say because you have not tested your opinion against experience.

Being amongst a group of believers in itself brings a certain pressure I appreciate. It would be hard to comfortablely say sorry guys I cannot heard what you think you can.

BUT your credibility is undermined until you have shared the time/space experience of one of those who enjoy trying to educate/enlighten you. It's almost like a membership requirement, an accreditation.

I find I prefer to experience things in my own time and space. Perhaps the mob can recommend something you can do in your time/space equivalent to the group experience. It would have to be something they know works in your environment not just a generic belief. Surely such an august body can devise something. If these heard differences are only audible on some system most people do not use or aspire to then, whatever the hearers hear is academic. I suspect this is the case as most posts on the subject are more like debating society indulgences rather than statements of fact.

John K seems like a decent guy and actually makes things as opposed to uses and has opinions on things. If distance isn't much of a problem perhaps he can give you a one to one demonstration so you can see what he means, it MAY extend your understanding which can only be a good thing. Then you will have appeased the mob and be wiser.

Best of luck

WN, I've tried many HDMI cables, before I knew they could make no difference, and they made no difference.

I heard no difference between CD's sending data to a Music Fidelity VDAC from a Marantz CDP or PS3 or Sony BDP, and the DAC in my ADMs when played on a PS3 or Sony BDP or Spotify or iTunes.

I heard no difference between the DAC in an Apple Airport Express and the VDAC and the Marantz CDP's DAC. I haven't bothered to compare the DAC in my ADMs to my Behringer UCA 202 DAC, but would expect no difference.

John K may well be a decent guy but I felt his reply to me yesterday was unnecessarily rude and therefore I'd probably refrain from any external contact with him.

 

[Steven Toy]

JohnK can be ... curt

....but I am certain that you would enjoy his company and it would broaden your horizons.

I have a concern though and this leads me to use the term "brainwashed." I invited you in all sincerity to come here for a listen. You didn't rule this out but with the condition that you visited the AVI garage first, presumably for some kind of "pep talk" or briefing.

 

[maxflinn]

Pep-talk or briefing

FFS Steven, get a grip....

 

[whatsnext]

WN, I've tried many HDMI cables, before I knew they could make no difference, and they made no difference.

I heard no difference between CD's sending data to a Music Fidelity VDAC from a Marantz CDP or PS3 or Sony BDP, and the DAC in my ADMs when played on a PS3 or Sony BDP or Spotify or iTunes.

I heard no difference between the DAC in an Apple Airport Express and the VDAC and the Marantz CDP's DAC. I haven't bothered to compare the DAC in my ADMs to my Behringer UCA 202 DAC, but would expect no difference.

John K may well be a decent guy but I felt his reply to me yesterday was unnecessarily rude and therefore I'd probably refrain from any external contact with him.

Thanks for your reply. Examples of your experience and reason for your opinions will seem less like the belief that you are theorising or as the scripted output from Steven from his AVI prejudices keeps saying that you are quoting Ashley or someone else.

You have to remember for some of these guys they listen for differences so often it is part of their experiencing normality and the slightest difference they hear is the mammoth difference they post and argue about.

Actually if one could abide the company of some members it would be good to have them "show" what they hear as different and make a fuss about. I tried asking a member once and the reverse gear and wild accusations went full throttle.

 

[tonerei]

Have to refrain from getting too involved in this as ones life will have ended in frustration. I think maxflinn is in it for the laughs. The behringer dac you are referring to costs $29. The airport not much more and streams in cd quality.
I can assure you John Kenny doesn't bite anyway if you are prepared to meet Ashley you should be well able for anything! I have a pair of avi positrons old floor standers made by AVI in the nineties. Still going and they sounded nice if a bit sluggish in bass compared to modern speakers. Point is played in my sons attic bedroom using a cheap pioneer amp/cheap source they sound not very good. They sounded excellent through a cyrus 8xp amp/power supply and Cyrus CD8x/Power supply. Really I think time on these forums should be spent assisting and giving ideas to the op's who asked the questions rather than being side tracked.

 

[Yanntoe]

Treb,
I currently use a SBT, with EDO software, with via a USB hub into my DAC then straight into my power amps.

Sounds really good and is dead easy to use - either via my PC using the Logitech Music Server, or via the remote.

I've tried all the configurations I can think of - USB, SPDIF, Optical, and also tried using my netbook as a dedicated front end in place of the SBT.

I always seem to come back to the SBT approach and have convinced myself that the USB option sounds best. PC/USB into SBT might sound as good or even slightly better, but it ends up being a hassle and after several trials I end up back with the SBT.

I've had the SBT since new so its around 3 years old and works a treat. So, maybe until something of equal utility comes along this would be an good option.

I certainly don't miss my Naim CDS3 so I reckon it is at least as good as that was.

Just sharing ....

Ian

 

[Yanntoe]

PS - Have used a Teddy Pardo power supply in the past which improved the sound of the "naked" SBT noticeably.

There seems to be a general feeling that once a separate DAC is employed, the external power supply for the SBT has less effect, and having sold mine when I moved to using my Netbook, I haven't replaced it now I have moved back to the SBT.

Maybe if I'm feeling "flush" I'll try one at some point in the future just to see if it improves things further.

Just updated the SBT with the new release LMS which seems to be fine.

Ian

 

[Ciunas Audio]

Hi Peter, everything I've covered has been pre-conversion, or pre-DAC, if you like.

Cheers.

No it hasn't - you talk about the sound not being affected & therefore you are necessarily talking about post DAC. I'm afraid you seem to be very mixed up & confused!

 

[Steven Toy]

My "AVI prejudices" are based on two things, both occuring at the same place and on the same day:

1) Hearing them and thinking how dull they were - no texture, poor dynamics.

2) On asking whether the file I was hearing was MP3 or something less lossy (with a view that a better quality/higher res file might just redeem the piss-poor SQ) I was told that it made no difference. I asked the question again. It was not answered.

I walked out, having been told that I had "bats in the belfry" for having enjoyed the top-flight Naim demonstration upstairs.

I concluded that in the context of ADM9s there probably was no difference between MP3 and FLAC etc.

My "prejudice," which isn't prejudice at all because it is based on having heard the wretched things extends only as far as ADM9s. The other AVI speakers and equipment (that I have not heard) I have every reason to believe are fine.

See! No prejudice at all!

 

[maxflinn]

No it hasn't - you talk about the sound not being affected & therefore you are necessarily talking about post DAC. I'm afraid you seem to be very mixed up & confused!

No, what I've said is there in black and white for all to see.

You are the one who's getting confused, not me.

 

[whatsnext]

My "AVI prejudices" are based on two things, both occuring at the same place and on the same day:

1) Hearing them and thinking how dull they were - no texture, poor dynamics.

2) On asking whether the file I was hearing was MP3 or something less lossy (with a view that a better quality/higher res file might just redeem the piss-poor SQ) I was told that it made no difference. I asked the question again. It was not answered.

I walked out, having been told that I had "bats in the belfry" for having enjoyed the top-flight Naim demonstration upstairs.

I concluded that in the context of ADM9s there probably was no difference between MP3 and FLAC etc.

My "prejudice," which isn't prejudice at all because it is based on having heard the wretched things extends only as far as ADM9s. The other AVI speakers and equipment (that I have not heard) I have every reason to believe are fine.

See! No prejudice at all!

Steven (using the 10 foot away rule)

Thanks for you frankness in explaining the experience you had it helps understand the why of your AVI posts. Do you think it does you any good to hold on the injury, sleight of that day and relive it and the insult you felt with the regularity that you do? It just looks a bit like you are a damaged person who cannot rise above any unwelcome interaction with others.

I trust you do not receive that in a negative way

 

[Steven Toy]

Steven (using the 10 foot away rule)

Thanks for you frankness in explaining the experience you had it helps understand the why of your AVI posts. Do you think it does you any good to hold on the injury, sleight of that day and relive it and the insult you felt with the regularity that you do? It just looks a bit like you are a damaged person who cannot rise above any unwelcome interaction with others.

I trust you do not receive that in a negative way

The interaction on a social level was fine. Ashley is superficially personable, affable even.

Unless radically different now (and the marketing style suggests not) ADM9s (the product) are still shit. Ok, they are on the money and a worthwhile upgrade from the plastic sub+sats you can get from PC World, Currys etc.

 

[tonerei]

The interaction on a social level was fine. Ashley is superficially personable, affable even.

Unless radically different now (and the marketing style suggests not) ADM9s (the product) are still shit. Ok, they are on the money and a worthwhile upgrade from the plastic sub+safs you can get from PC World, Currys etc.

Never met the guy but he did communicate with me concerning spikes for my speakers. Again find myself nodding in agreement with Steven he is on the money there. If the interaction mentioned above happened I would think Steven is being very restrained in his comments. I wonder will this thread ever meander back to rega dacs or getting the best out of any dac.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

No, what I've said is there in black and white for all to see.

You are the one who's getting confused, not me.

Yes, it's there in black & white for everyone to see - that's why I agreed that you were doing yourself a disservice by continually posting such confusion.

Yes, I am confused by your logic.

Just to clarify - you do understand that there can be NO SOUND until the digital audio signal has been converted to analogue through a DAC, don't you?

You do make the claim that all you are talking about is pre-DAC & claim that nothing pre-DAC can affect the sound - therefore nothing upstream of the dac can affect what goes on in this D to A conversion, right?