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Garrard 301 plinth design

Are you both using the Garrard rubber washers?

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At some point (if I can be bothered) I'll try without. I had a listen to Andy831's 301 both with and without the washers and preferred with, not that there was a huge difference there to be honest, I suspect we had the deck bolted into the plinth too tightly.

Tony.
 
Yup, using washers. Just replaced with new from Lorricraft.

Same as you Tony, can't hear that much difference - and I can't say which I prefer. I left them in place.

I had a mad weekend a few years ago when I tried lots of things between the top plate and the plinth; cork, blutak, hardwood, softwood, metal and a few others. They all sounded a bit different but nothing stood out as better then the original. I even tried different things in different corners! I did say it was a mad weekend :D

Though I do find what the plinth stands on makes a large difference for me, but that could be down to having a Torlyte plinth. I haven't used a heavy plinth for the 401 for nearly 20 years and my memory is not that good and the rest of the system is completely different.

JK
 
I’m now beginning to get a handle on what has changed sonically in going to the slate plinth. This isn’t a review, more a collection of thoughts at this point in time. The rambling here should also be read as coming to terms with the Tannoy Monotor Golds, as these are also a recent aspect to my system (I’m approaching this all with fresh ears after everything has been boxed up for the best part of three months due to house renovation).

I’ve worked through a fair number of records over the past few days now, new stuff, old stuff, even a fair crop of old 80’s dem favs in an attempt to try and nail things down in my mind.

The main thing that has improved is clarity. There is simply a lot more information in play and it sounds, by comparison, less confused and more secure. There is certainly a ‘big deck’ sound too, I can hear similarities to decks like the SME 20, NAS Hyperspace etc - it just kind of goes “Pah! That’s what’s in the groove, make of it what you will…” rather than making a big song and dance about things. No stress, no strain.

In many ways it’s perhaps easier to try and describe what is not there: artifice. There is no hash, glare, overhang, bloat, flub etc. A few disks that stand out from the big pile on the floor:

Dave Brubeck – Time Out (Classic Records audiophile pressing). Just utterly stunning. Near life sized musicians in a clear acoustic space with effortless dynamics. So easy to follow the timing etc (this record is all about timing). Late at night with the light out it is amazing.

Joy Division – Unknown Pleasures (UK 1st pressing). I dug this out to compare against CD just to make sure I was barking up the right tree setup wise. I used the recent two disc ‘Collectors Edition’, and by comparison the CD sounds completely broken on my current Sony X3000 ES top-loader. I get the impression the powers that be realised that the Heart And Soul remaster was too lean (it was) and they wanted to fatten this one up. They did. Badly. The bass drum is pretty horrible and thumpy, I guess so you can hear it on cheap iPod headphones. The record just sounds right – clearer, far more dynamics, more space, easier to follow the individual strands and more emotional connection. I stuck the CD on, listened to the first track, stuck the LP on and played the whole side. It’s that kind of difference!

Blue Nile – A Walk Across The Roof Tops (UK 1st press). Yay! Top flat earth dem disk! Really interesting listening to this one on a non-Linn / Naim system, it just approaches it in a whole different way. Everything is just so solid, clean, clear and unconfused, all neat and in it’s place in a way I’ve never heard before. I played Easter Parade and Heatwave and really enjoyed it. I do like this album, it’s a real fluke as audiophile label music is usually quite horrid IME.

OMD – Messages 10”. I remember this as being a weighty number, but f*ckin hell! It’s just huge. A monster. I have never heard this sound like this, just full force studio sound. Wonderful.

Dexter Gordon – One Flight Up. Now this is a hard one as it’s one of my favourite and most played records, but the spanner in the works is that I recently changed my copy from an 80s French Blue Note to the recent Cisco audiophile pressing. As such all I can say is it sounds wonderful, anything more than that is probably as much to do with changes in mastering (the Cisco is darker and more solid, the French pressing leads on the kit metalwork more). I list this here because it is a favourite, and it still is despite being a moving target in several respects.

Bach – Violin Sonatas and Parttas, Josef Suk, HMV 3xLP box. Not played a lot of classical yet, that’s for another day, but I tried this as it is so simple, pure and beautiful. Not the world’s greatest pressing, but the Garrard lifts the violin out of the surface noise better than anything I’ve used before, it is a remarkably quiet deck. This is superb music; mathematical yet emotional too.

Spicelab – A Day On Our Planet. Wonderful 90s electronica / trance album from Oliver Lieb. Sets up a massive acoustic space with analogue blips and squelches and then drives a 909 kick-drum through the floor and into the cellar. This always sounds great, but especially so now. A propulsive groove.

Joni Mitchell – Blue (UK original with A2/B1 matrix). This is one of the hardest records to play well IME, the voice is just so exposed and the mix so stripped and bare that even the slightest mistracking becomes evident to the point of pain. This copy is the result of many attempts to get a mint first pressing, and even so I always felt it still had some issues. I’ve never heard it sound so clear and clean before, in fact I don’t think there is anything wrong with the record at all. Very good indeed, and as good an indicator of change as I can bring to mind – it plays better at the most fundamental mechanical level. I also played my 1st press of Court And Spark and that sounded wonderful. Again I am conscious of more information being revealed. Must give my Nimbus pressing of Hissing a spin later as that always sounds superb.

I don’t think I’m successfully articulating what I want to here: basically the 301 / M2-10 / AT33PTG really is different both to how it was in the wood / MDF plinth, and also to any deck I’ve owned previously. This is an obvious step up. The gain is a real sense of additional resolution power, and this extends to low-end weight that can turn itself on or off as the record requires etc. The hardest thing to put into words is the lack of a constant character: one record will have bass that goes down forever, another will be lean, tight and dry, small even / one will set musicians in a huge soundstage behind the speakers, another will sound like simplistic panned mono mic feeds each in it’s own effect space. As such it is hard to nail down what it does and what is missing.

As a whole the system can on occasion perhaps strip things too bare and make it obvious one is listening to studio created ‘multitrack mono’ with all individual instrument mic and processing techniques revealed - the character changes from record to record, or even track to track, which is exactly as it should. The good sounds stunning, the bad is still enjoyable so far, though I haven’t tried anything really bad yet, I guess I need to run some boots and 78 transcriptions through it.

The flat earth question: will it play Steely Dan’s Gaucho the way a LP12 / Naim / Kans does? Absolutely not. This is a far bigger and easier sound, it simply does not have that ‘edge of the seat’ / frantic head-bobbing factor, it just puts it all in front of you with zero effort. The hard thing to articulate here is that it is at the same time far clearer, tighter and more informative. It’s all there, much more of it in fact - if you wanted to transcribe the bass line you would unquestionably choose the 301 / Tannoy system, it’s just there and so clear to hear, as are all the layers and overdubs that go to make up this album. All the notes and timing cues are present, it is just very, very different in presentation. Do I like it? No, not really, but I don’t think I ever liked this album much at all to be honest - to my mind it’s a pretty bland and over-produced session-muso job. It’s just a great disk if you want to sell someone a LP12, Naim amp or Kans as for some reason it comes alive in that scenario. Does this imply the 301 / Tannoy system doesn’t work from a flat earth perspective, i.e. pitch, tune, time / PRaT? No, thankfully it’s all still there, just presented differently, and without any artifice, stunts or grandstanding.

Tony.

PS currently listening to King Tubby & Prince Jammy – Dub Gone 2 Crazy. It does reggae too. Wahey!
 
So you're pleased then?

I'm only familiar with the Brubek and Dexter Gordon albums but I have to agree with the timing comments.

Have you noticed a reduction in surface noise and whoosh?

I have a largish bootleg collection and the whilst the Garrard can't work miracles it does allow the music through better then anything I've heard. I listen to a lot of old jazz and blues recorded less then brilliantly and again it serves the music well. Actually the more I think about it very few of my LPs are shining examples of the recording art - do I care?

What are you driving your Tannoys with Tony?

JK
 
Have you noticed a reduction in surface noise and whoosh?

Yes, and it was previously the quietest deck I'd ever owned in this regard, and that's after a long run of nice quiet LP12s, the Spacedeck etc (my P9 / Lyra was pretty noisy though). Two things have changed with the plinth change: the frequency range in which clicks reside is now clearer and more defined, this seems to have reduced their impact further, the other thing is there is no idler rumble I can hear whereas there was just a smidge in the the wood / MDF plinth (I suspect the 18mm top plate was not really thick / heavy enough, Lorricraft use 25mm). I have not set out to actively listen for rumble, i.e. spinning a blank track on a test disk, but I am buggered if I can hear anything between tracks at even my louder listening levels. I guess the other factor is that the Tannoys are not forward at all, if anything they have a bit of a 'BBC dip' in the mid, they are not a speaker that would emphasise ticks and pops in the way a small mid-band centred standmount can.

What are you driving your Tannoys with Tony

Complete system is 301 / M2-10 / AT 33 PTG, Dynavector P100 phono stage, Spectral MI330 interconnects, Prima Luna Prologue Two (non-stock NOS tubes, it's running with EL34s at present), Mogami 2972 speaker wires, 15" MGs (still completely stock, I've not done anything bar thoroughly clean the switches and plugs and bung some better binding posts on the cabs).

Tony.
 
Another clear improvement: I'm currently spinning Circus Maximus by the (far too clever for his own good) Momus, a record that I have never been able to get through without sibilance on the remarkably toppy vocal (I remember the Spacedeck really ssss-spitting this one out). There is not the slightest trace now, still very bright, and not how I'd have recorded it, but it's clean and behaving itself. Excellent - I'll be able to enjoy this album now!

Tony.
 
Circus Maximus tracked cleanly? Wow. That must be some Garrard. Must give it a play tonight. (Momus's "Closer to you" is one of my all time favourite tracks; fond memories...)
 
The flat earth question: will it play Steely Dan’s Gaucho the way a LP12 / Naim / Kans does? Absolutely not. This is a far bigger and easier sound, it simply does not have that ‘edge of the seat’ / frantic head-bobbing factor, it just puts it all in front of you with zero effort. The hard thing to articulate here is that it is at the same time far clearer, tighter and more informative. It’s all there, much more of it in fact - if you wanted to transcribe the bass line you would unquestionably choose the 301 / Tannoy system, it’s just there and so clear to hear, as are all the layers and overdubs that go to make up this album. All the notes and timing cues are present, it is just very, very different in presentation. Do I like it? No, not really, but I don’t think I ever liked this album much at all to be honest - to my mind it’s a pretty bland and over-produced session-muso job. It’s just a great disk if you want to sell someone a LP12, Naim amp or Kans as for some reason it comes alive in that scenario.

I don't much like this LP either (or Nightfly) - and I like SD. When I heard it (on CD) at Naim HQ with the full active system of a few years ago, I just thought 'why?'.

I played it on my 301 fronted system the other day and thought it sounded a lot better than I recalled. Not a patch on Aja though.

I finally got a Classic Records copy of Led Zeppelin's 'Physical Graffiti' the other day, and that really is a great album. I've never owned a copy, and probably haven't listened to it since it first came out, but it sounds absolutely fabulous on the 301.
 
Circus Maximus tracked cleanly? Wow. That must be some Garrard. Must give it a play tonight. (Momus's "Closer to you" is one of my all time favourite tracks; fond memories...)

Yes! It floored me too, I just assumed it was born that way. Still very bright / crisp and the his 's' sounds are still prominent, but they are now clean and defined, there is no break-up. I really enjoyed listening to it as it's a great album, I'll spin it right the way through later.

I don't much like this LP either (or Nightfly) - and I like SD. When I heard it (on CD) at Naim HQ with the full active system of a few years ago, I just thought 'why?'.

I far prefer Nightfly, I just like it from a bass player perspective; it's got a truly stunning bass sound IMO (and yes it sounds superb on the 301 / Tannoys). I've got the Classic PG myself too, will give it a spin at some point. LZ I is still my fav though.

Tony.
 
Tony - interesting comments thanks. My first listening of a lot of the audiofool tracks was via CD, so getting my LP12 a few years back saw me purchasing them all on vinyl too. I loved what heard, all the while knowing that what I was listening to was very coloured, especially the one note bass thing. Your description of following the bass lines exactly matches what I felt when I fitted a decent subchassis, but didn't have the writing ability to capture :)

The deck looks great!

Richard
 
Your description of following the bass lines exactly matches what I felt when I fitted a decent subchassis, but didn't have the writing ability to capture :)

I still haven't captured it - will try again...

There is certainly a negative aspect here too: There is now a huge gulf between the good, the average, and the bad. Far greater than I’ve ever had before. I’m really finding a lottery effect in playing records: some stuff sounds utterly stunning. Usually this is exactly the stuff one would expect to sound utterly stunning, e.g. simply mic’d vintage jazz cuts, quality classical recordings, modern electronica, the better recorded almost live in the studio indie etc. Some other stuff can sound really small, boring, and compressed - this tends to be multi-tracked / over-dubbed 70s and 80s rock albums where studio trickery is laid just bare and the lack of any real dynamic range cruelly exposed. Some stuff just sounds dead, though whether it would if one wasn't aware of how the good stuff sounds I don't know.

I guess this is all to be expected as there genuinely is a huge gulf in recording and pressing quality. I’ve always been aware of this, but the extent to which this is revealed has increased hugely and will take a some getting used to. This is clearly at least as much to do with the Tannoys as the Garrard – I’ve never had a window anything like this wide open to listen through before - they are superficially a relaxed and easy-going loudspeaker, but they let a huge amount of information through and completely lack the edge, glare or artifice that sometimes passes for excitement with small modern speakers. It would be easy to accuse them of being boring in some situations, but I don't think that is fair as the information is clearly there, and far more so than in any 'exiting' system I've owned / heard in the past.

To illustrate what I mean via the medium of cruel stereotyping I've always felt SBL owners all tend to play their speakers far louder than they actually want to go. They seem to turn them up until there is a real edge / crack to the snare and the rhythm drives forward in an "exciting" way. JM Labs owners do exactly the same thing. I usually find the edge & glare quite painful and quickly get a headache! Kan users almost do this too, but Kans do it at pretty much all volumes as they have no real bass so they kind of come 'pre-EQ'd'. Big Tannoys don't / can't do this at all. They just have no hardness in the mid, if anything they dip slightly the other way. The snare is simply revealed as it was recorded, which can be anything from a wonderful live experience through to a cheap and nasty mic through a cheap desk and a cheap digital FX rack & compressor. It's just laid bare - I get the impression the speaker brings no excitement to the table of it's own.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing overall, it would certainly be a very bad thing to sacrifice the truly good for a more overall equality, it's just something I'm conscious about and needs adding to my earlier comments for balance.

Tony.
 
Will do, I just want a few more days to consider the deck's setup. I think it's there now, but it would be annoying to stick something up prematurely, this is after all a very fresh installation, it usually takes me weeks to really get things how I want them!

Tony.

PS I'd far prefer to stick up some decent jazz cuts than the 70s rock stuff listed at the top of your thread, we must have some Blue Notes in common? Might even do Brubeck's Take Five as everyone knows that one.
 
Excellent write-up Tony.
You seem to have found a system that hits the spot and presses all of the right buttons, which is rare.

I sympathise with your view on the gap between good and bad recordings.
If the problem is dynamics there is little that can be done but I find some are just tonally 'off' and the pre amp tilt control makes it more listenable.

If you fancy doing some needle drops I can visit with some kit and help.
Haven't seen you for a while.
 
Will do, I just want a few more days to consider the deck's setup. I think it's there now, but it would be annoying to stick something up prematurely, this is after all a very fresh installation, it usually takes me weeks to really get things how I want them!

Tony.

PS I'd far prefer to stick up some decent jazz cuts than the 70s rock stuff listed at the top of your thread, we must have some Blue Notes in common? Might even do Brubeck's Take Five as everyone knows that one.

Take your time, no big hurry. I just put a splattering of 70's, 80's and 90's cuts of just regular records that most folks might have in their collection that would also make for interesting comparison. Surely you must have at least of few of the albums.

Finding a Blue Note that we have in common that's not a post 70's re-issue might be a challenge. I have some early pressings, some mono, some stereo in questionable condition that might be interesting. I'm not a big fan of audiophool pressings as most leave me cold. I checked and noticed I have a mono six-eye of Time Out and a later stereo re-issue, but that's it, not a favorite album of mine.
 
If you fancy doing some needle drops I can visit with some kit and help.
Haven't seen you for a while.

I've got a recent alloy MacBook and an interconnect without a nail or key in the middle, so should be ok kit wise, but an extra set of ears would be very welcome - would be great to see you.

Tony,
 
Tony
I may have posted this before but I think its worth a try.
It’s a tweak that I made to my 401 which really brings out the dynamics and vibrancy of my deck.
I am not sure if this is only relevant with REGA RB 300 / 250 Arms but bolting it down tight to the plinth kills the sound quite a bit. My plinth is MDF and does ring when you tap on it with the needle down so I guess that doesn’t help either, I am sure that slate is much better in this respect.
I experimented with the arm bolted up tight and then finger tight and then loose. Loose had the most open and dynamic sound but bass was a bit flabby / vague and a loose arm is hopeless really.
I tried securing with blue tack but that makes it sound damped so I tried isolating the arm by fitting 4 small ball bearings between the arm board and the plinth and just secured with 2 screws, this tightened up the base but still retained the open and vibrant sound of the deck so I have left it that way. This is a simple thing to try with some 3 -4mm cycle bearings which I had kicking around in the garage. Note I had to remove a 4mm ring shim from the arm as well to maintain the same VTA.
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh290/337alant/garrard401b.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh290/337alant/garrard401a.jpg
Alan
 
Interesting. Unfortunately my arm mounting is very hard to get at with the deck in situ. It's also very simple: just a SME cut out in the slate itself, there is no 'armboard' here at all:

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The M2-10 sits on a SME P1 metal spacer and is secured to the plinth with 4 suitably long M3 hex bolts. I’ve got metal washers at the top to protect the arm base and both metal and fibre washers at the bottom to protect the slate. The arm is currently ‘medium tight’, i.e. more than ‘Nottingham Analogue tight’, less than ‘Linn tight’.

As the Garrard is so much deeper than the plinth, and the skateboard wheel / spike feet are non-attached I had to build the deck in situ. I fitted the arm to the plinth, put the plinth on it’s feet and levelled it, and finally dropped the Garrard in the hole. Disassembly would be the reverse. I suspect the plinth is heavy enough to do very real damage to the 301 if it was placed down without the feet.

I’ll buy some M3 wing-nuts at some point for the arm as I may be able to reach those from the side with the deck in situ, though I’ll have to dismantle the whole thing to swap them over so it’s not a priority (to put it mildly!).

Tony.
 
You are right about the Tannoys, a friend has been loaned a pair, I think they are Berkleys, a few of us were around there last night, very detailed and deep, they were being driven by a 30w SE Amp (DIY) They are completely standard but I have a feeling that they will be wonderfully tweekable, just a quick Google has thrown up a great many sites. They certainly sounded as if they had lots of potential. As to the stark honesty of your turntable I have not (yet) found the same with my 401 rebuild, in fact if anything it's the opposite, I can find something to enjoy in recordings that were just "to the bin" on the LP12. Interesting.
As an aside, I have just come home from the movie District 9, Wow! a must see, I will say no more.
Errol
 


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