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Garrard 301/401 versus Thorens TD124

Excellent suggestion but why do all the best turntables have to be in England?
Anyways, please don't tell anyone else about them until I see if I can get one!

Cheers,
Garth

revs said:
Hello Garth,

Have you looked into the lenco idler drive TT's, they have been gaining popularity for a while now as an alternative to the garrard/thorens. They are still attractively priced, although they are rising slowly. A couple of links for you to look into:

http://www.worldaudiodesign.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20468

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/maddogmcq/myart/lencoheaven/index.htm

regards,

The Reverend
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Hi Garth,

yes it is a vintage SME 3012/2, but with bronze base. On a vintage deck, a 3012 will always outperform a smallish Rega. Unfortunately, prices for 3012 regardless of vintage, did explode in the last years, now even approaching price level of new gear.

Yes, the Emporium is a good place to buy vintage. Nick is knowledgeable and helpfull.

best regards,
Hartmut

Garth said:
Is that an SME 3012 tonearm your friend uses? If so, how does it sound? I was always under the impression that even the RB300 would be superior to an SME 3012, which I would imagine can be picked up fairly reasonably. Any of the newer 12" models would be beyond my budget at this point I suspect.

I sent an e-mail off to "The Emporium" in the U.K. as they appear to have Garrards and Thorens on a fairly regular basis and the prices seem to be similar to e-bay. I am not finding anything much on this side of the pond yet so importing from the U.K. may be the only option. Sounds like shipping would be somewhere in the range of 100 pounds - ouch!

Best,
Garth
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Garth,

Did you happen to notice the armless TD-124 mk1 listed on CAM?

Buyer collects in our nation's capital though, but perhaps he could be talked into shipping via insured carrier.

Craig
 
The Reverend is right.

Heavy platter Lencos are serious contenders too.

One thing against them is the looks. With only a third of the platter showing plus the dinky looking chassis, it doesn't look like there's some serious engineering wrt the motor design and platter balancing.
 
What's CAM? I guess that means no. Thanks for the tip Craig. Could you send me a link. I was just in Ottawa a few weeks ago. ARRRgggghhh.

Best,
Garth

Craig Best said:
Garth,

Did you happen to notice the armless TD-124 mk1 listed on CAM?

Buyer collects in our nation's capital though, but perhaps he could be talked into shipping via insured carrier.

Craig
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hifidaddy said:
Hi Garth,

Yes, the Emporium is a good place to buy vintage. Nick is knowledgeable and helpfull.

best regards,
Hartmut
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Yes I heard back from Nick. Unfortunately they don't have anything suitable in right now. He's not a big fan of 401's. Feels they have poor speed suitability. I - Garth - have absolutely no doubt this would not be the case with a Loricrafted one. Finds the 301 more reliable but also more plinth dependant. Feels the td124 is good but tends to need regular maintenance.

You pays your money...

Best,
Garth
 
Garth said:
Yes I heard back from Nick. Unfortunately they don't have anything suitable in right now. He's not a big fan of 401's. Feels they have poor speed suitability. I - Garth - have absolutely no doubt this would not be the case with a Loricrafted one. Finds the 301 more reliable but also more plinth dependant. Feels the td124 is good but tends to need regular maintenance.

You pays your money...

Best,
Garth
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Hi Garth,

I'm not sure where the "regular maintenance" thing comes from, as I've said earlier in the thread, the 124 is built like a battleship and in 20 years I've changed 1 drive belt and used a maintenance kit from an ebay shop in France.
I only did this because I had a feeling it was about time, being as I was putting the Ittok onto it, not that it wasn't sounding good or was "rumbling" or whatever other ailments it is supposed to suffer from!

I can offer no help regarding any of the Garrards as I only have very limited experience of a 401 in years gone by. Mick Parry seems to be the resident expert here regarding Loricrafted 401's and by all accounts swears by them. I believe he's away on holiday at the moment but you may wish to browse his Garrard 401 posts and perhaps have a chat to him when he gets back.

Cheers

Dave
 
DAVEDWACK said:
Hi Garth,

I'm not sure where the "regular maintenance" thing comes from, as I've said earlier in the thread, the 124 is built like a battleship and in 20 years I've changed 1 drive belt and used a maintenance kit from an ebay shop in France.
I only did this because I had a feeling it was about time, being as I was putting the Ittok onto it, not that it wasn't sounding good or was "rumbling" or whatever other ailments it is supposed to suffer from!

I can offer no help regarding any of the Garrards as I only have very limited experience of a 401 in years gone by. Mick Parry seems to be the resident expert here regarding Loricrafted 401's and by all accounts swears by them. I believe he's away on holiday at the moment but you may wish to browse his Garrard 401 posts and perhaps have a chat to him when he gets back.

Cheers

Dave
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Thanks Dave. I wondered why Mick had not joined in. One of the big advantages of going the Garrard route might be that folks like Mick and other have so much experience. Also, it seems fairly straight forward to get some plans for a Loricraft-like plinth and have someone local build it. I really don't have the time to experiment with different plinth styles etc. I would want to get something sorted out quite quickly and get on with listening to music. I must say the difficulty of finding something on this side of the pond and the cost - 60 to 100 pounds - of getting something shipped from the U.K. is proving rather an obstacle.

I have been somewhat tempted by a Linn Axis with AkitoII arm for $550US I spied lately.

Best,
Garth
 
>I have been somewhat tempted by a Linn Axis with AkitoII arm for $550US I spied lately.

Garth!! Don't give in! If you are looking at the likes of 401/301/TD124s you'll be sorely let down by an Axis and be looking to sell on very soon....

Hang on in there....!

Rich
 
RichShortland said:
>I have been somewhat tempted by a Linn Axis with AkitoII arm for $550US I spied lately.

Garth!! Don't give in! If you are looking at the likes of 401/301/TD124s you'll be sorely let down by an Axis and be looking to sell on very soon....

Hang on in there....!

Rich
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Thanks for the input Rich.

Best,
Garth
 
Chaps

I noticed my name was being mentioned earlier in this post as a source of advice.

I regret to say that following an incident where my comments on a recent thread where described as "bollocks" even though I was reiterating advice given to me by Terry O Sullivan of Loricraft, I vowed never again to publically comment on the Garrard 401 on this forum.

I do not mind being told I am talking bollocks but I objected to Terry O Sullivans advice being described as bollocks because he knows more about vinyl than everyone else on this forum put together. Anyone who has seen his work and heard the results would agree that he is up amongst the best.

I am happy to take private mail on the subject but my days of public comment on the Garrard are over.

I will, however, comment on the Naim forum where Terrys expertise is recognised and treated with respect.

Regards

Mick
 
I regret to say that following an incident where my comments on a recent thread where described as "bollocks" even though I was reiterating advice given to me by Terry O Sullivan of Loricraft, I vowed never again to publically comment on the Garrard 401 on this forum.
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Probably just as well as anyone who thinks the 301 is only suitable for mono records has such a remarkably feeble grasp of how a turntable works it would be wise not to give advise to others! Sorry Mick, no offence intended, but that comment was bollocks - it can so easily be disproved both in practice and from a logical / scientific standpoint, and coming from an engineering background this should mean something to you.

Tony.

PS I honestly think you are doing Terry a disservice here - he understands record decks and would not come out with such a profoundly stupid statement - I am sure you have misinterpreted what he meant. Get him on here posting.

PPS I suspect you may find the odd person on the Naim forum who understands how a turntable works too ;)
 
Mick Parry said:
Chaps

I noticed my name was being mentioned earlier in this post as a source of advice.

I regret to say that following an incident where my comments on a recent thread where described as "bollocks" even though I was reiterating advice given to me by Terry O Sullivan of Loricraft, I vowed never again to publically comment on the Garrard 401 on this forum.

I do not mind being told I am talking bollocks but I objected to Terry O Sullivans advice being described as bollocks because he knows more about vinyl than everyone else on this forum put together. Anyone who has seen his work and heard the results would agree that he is up amongst the best.

I am happy to take private mail on the subject but my days of public comment on the Garrard are over.

I will, however, comment on the Naim forum where Terrys expertise is recognised and treated with respect.

Regards

Mick
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Thanks Mick. I have followed the various threads on 401's and 301's for some time as I have a real affection for these beautiful old tables and love it when 50 year old technology can still compete with the best of the modern innovations. I have certainly enjoyed your contributions on this topic and I am sure that you have inspired more than a few readers to take the plunge. You are certainly fortunate to have such convenient access to Terry and all his expertise and knowledge. I wish you were continuing to contribute to these discussions. At this point, it may all come down to what I can find in good condition at a reasonable price I think any of these fine tables would delight and serve me well for many years. I certainly appreciate your kind offer of input and will no doubt take you up on your offer and send you a PM should I end up with a Garrard.

Best Regards,
Garth
 
I find the comments that the 301/401 need constant maintanance a little confusing. Other than a drop of oil every now and again my (admitedly limited) experiance is that they are a true fit and forget machine.

Keeping in mind that these decks are at least 30 years old and most would benefit from setting up properly, by someone that knows what they are doing. That many people dont have experiance of these decks (myself included) is testament of the soundness and reliability of the basic design.

One misconception that still seems to get bandied about is that the motor only needs a drop of oil every now and again. The bottom motor bearing cannot be oiled without stripping down the motor. After doing this straight forward job on my own 401 and witnessing the huge differance it makes I would guess that most of these "issues" would be avoided with correct maintanance. A couple of hours work once a year is not constant fettling in my book.


Paul
 
I think we understand each other.
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I don’t think we do as you don’t seem to want to deal with the actual issue.

pfm is a very different place to say Naim, Mana etc, this is not a fan site in any way, shape or form. If someone makes a controversial statement here they can expect that statement to be challenged from a logical, intellectual or practical standpoint. Nothing is taken on trust. If someone has a strong viewpoint then that is great, but they must expect to back that position up. Simple rhetoric will always be exposed as such.

My argument regarding Mick’s comments on the 301 is not personal – it is the statement I have issue with, not the person who made it (I never name call and I have no issue whatsoever with Mick personally). I have have set up probably hundreds of turntables over the past 25 years, so when someone makes a statement that profoundly defies both logic and my own experience I feel I have a valid position from which to comment and I would ask them to back their ideas up with some facts or at least a half baked theory - ‘someone said so’ will (thankfully) never wash on pfm. I hope this clarifies matters.

Tony.
 
fox said:
...my main beef is the suggestion that somehow mono records are inferior and therefore need a lesser deck because IME that doesn't match up with my experience. I've been listening to quite a few mono records recently from Riverside, Savoy Jazz, Blue Note and so on a few mono classical records thrown in there as well and the sound quality of these records is stunning... All the detail a detail nerd like me could wish for is locked into these grooves...

I'm actually coming up with the ass-about-head notion that the better arm and cartridge will be used on the mono side of things. They are worth that extra -- maybe something to do with the skill of the engineers, and the performances and the quality of the studio transducers being used... many of which are highly-prized today.
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Surely the point is not that mono is inferior, just a little less complicated to 'extract' from the grooves than stereo. A little like B+W vs colour photography perhaps?
 
Patrick Dixon said:
Surely the point is not that mono is inferior, just a little less complicated to 'extract' from the grooves than stereo. A little like B+W vs colour photography perhaps?
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That's the jist of the original comment as far as I understand - the suggestion was that the 301 has more 'rumble/noise/vibration' (delete as applicable) in the vertical plane than the 401, which was fine for playing mono as the pickup recognises only left/right movement.... therefore the theory was that the 301 is less useful at stereo (which uses up/down movement too) than the 401, where whatever caused this 'rumble/noise/vibration' was apparently addressed.

That's my understanding of the concept.

Rich
 
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