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French Presidential Election 2022

Mainstream politicians need to grasp the scale of the challenge and address the real issues or we're all screwed.
Absolutely. To your sentence I’d add “for the people on lower incomes”. But from the current candidates of the left I don’t see anyone qualified for that job. Mélenchon is cool to listen to, I’d even pay for a funny evening at one if his shows, but that’s about all he can manage.
 
As I say, Putin is a way of explaining all this without having to actually explain it.

I do get what you are saying, but it is unwise to dismiss the power of modern propaganda and the spreading of obviously false narratives. I still think Adam Curtis’s Hypernormalisation is a superb analysis of where modern politics exists. The more crazy happens the more I feel he hit all the nails in their heads.

We need to accept that QAnon, Farage, Trump, Johnson, Le Pen etc is where modern politics now resides. This is our reality, and it seems to be one that exists far beyond logic. How we collectively deal with that I’m not sure, but to attempt to deny this is the front-line or excuse those that helped make it so is bizarre. Especially if it is just a reaction to defend leftist idols who were dumb enough to be ‘useful idiots’ on Putin’s disruptor channels. We are where we are.

I assume you're thinking of George Galloway (who is regarded as an opportunistic prick by almost every leftist on Twitter that I follow)?

Unless you can name any others? "Sheer number" suggests that there are lots of them.

I tried Googling and couldn’t find a full list of MPs, but loads and loads have. Lots of MPs from right across the political spectrum have taken Putin’s shilling to appear on RT. From memory Corbyn, Lammy, Danzcuk and many others from Labour, even after McDonnell suggested their doing so was unwise. Lib Dem Vince Cable too (proving he was a total idiot in the process), plus quite a lot of Tories including Johnson’s father.

I have always understood exactly what RT was. I have always either deleted content or aggressively challenged links to it on this site. I never for a second bought into it being a legitimate news or opinion source. It is far more clever than say Guido Fawkes or Breitbart (two other links I will not host) as it is a disruptor rather than a simple partisan device, but the number of idiots that willingly appeared on it absolutely astonished me.
 
Well, I should have known better than to make a prediction. But my main reason for posting is to prompt you to answer my question: what has happened to the gilets jaunes? As far as I can see, Mélenchan hasn’t managed to capitalise on the movement. Has Le Pen? It looks to me as though it has completely fizzled out, it had hardly any political impact at all.

Marine Le Pen’s party seems to me to be quite similar to Boris Johnson’s, by the way.
MLP's party is not very different from some of the weirder elements of Johnson's party, but on balance the CoG of the Conservative Party still seems more to the centre (maybe an optimistic view of the CP). MLP's National Front (or whatever they want to call themselves now) is a party almost totally devoid of government experience. Were they to get into power, nobody knows how they would manage and reconcile the gaping contradictions in their programme. Chances are they would go full Vichy, but you can't be sure.

The gilets jaunes movement was an inchoate collection of grievances and resentments, many of them quite legitimate. It started out as a protest against Edouard Philippe's well-meaning but not very clever decisions to reduce the speed limit on main roads from 90 to 80, and to increase the tax on fuel, all in the name of safety and the environment. Commuters in distant suburbs and rural communities struggling to make ends meet took this as one more attack on their livelihoods, and it mushroomed from there, including blocked roundabouts and motorways and quite a bit of street violence. In the background, low salaries that don't keep up with the real inflation (rents, phone bills, motorway tolls, insurance, energy prices...) It then took a more political direction, with extreme right and left wing parties trying to use the movement to achieve what they had failed to get in the elections. Demands included Macron's resignation, popular initiative referendums, rescinding the fuel tax, etc. Macron took a firm line on the law and order side (the demonstrations but ended up spending lots of public money to defuse the social grievances (about € 17 billion in total). The monthly minimum wage was increased by 100€, new tax breaks on overtime and pensions below 2000€, etc. For a politician dismissed as a right wing plutocrat (Rothschild!!!), he has spent a lot of money on social measures.The right wing parties accused Macron of buying social peace. The increase in fuel tax was rescinded.

The GJ had already run out of steam by the time COVID showed up, with the confinement making demonstrations impossible and creating a whole new set of grievances: lack of masks (destroyed under the Hollande government to save money), right to stay away from work ("principe de précaution") on full pay, etc. When masks were finally available, some people refused to wear them. When vaccines became available, many people were suspicious of them. Etc. Here again, the Macron government's measures (furlough on 85% pay, etc.) were among the most progressive in Europe, with the result that the economy contracted less than expected and bounced back quickly after COVID. The right still hasn't forgiven him.

Yes, some left wing Putin-supporting cranks on Twitter are certainly responsible for this.
No, no, no, those beastly centrists are the root of this evil.
 
Where have the gilets jaunes gone?
The ended up standing in for everything, including far-right standpoints. They cannibalized themselves.

What France needs now is a rebuild of its industry which was destroyed by Mitterrand thirty years ago. Macron does a fairly good job at that, he isn’t liked at all by the French people but they still vote for him, I guess he’s doing something right.
 
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Absolutely. To your sentence I’d add “for the people on lower incomes”. But from the current candidates of the left I don’t see anyone qualified for that job. Mélenchon is cool to listen to, I’d even pay for a funny evening at one if his shows, but that’s about all he can manage.
What is the qualification? If it is to be electable, than the thing that is electable, and if Le Pen is anything to go by, growing in electability, is right wing politics.

It is not the person who needs to be electable, but the politics, and if the left has to adopt the politics of the right to become electable, then it becomes little different to right wing politics and only succeeds in perpetuating the problem. A problem we have seen writ large in the UK for decades, and is now apparent a cross the channel.
 
I do get what you are saying, but it is unwise to dismiss the power of modern propaganda and the spreading of obviously false narratives. I still think Adam Curtis’s Hypernormalisation is a superb analysis of where modern politics exists. The more crazy happens the more I feel he hit all the nails in their heads.

We need to accept that QAnon, Farage, Trump, Johnson, Le Pen etc is where modern politics now resides. This is our reality, and it seems to be one that exists far beyond logic. How we collectively deal with that I’m not sure, but to attempt to deny this is the front-line or excuse those that helped make it so is bizarre. Especially if it is just a reaction to defend leftist idols who were dumb enough to be ‘useful idiots’ on Putin’s disruptor channels. We are where we are.



I tried Googling and couldn’t find a full list of MPs, but loads and loads have. Lots of MPs from right across the political spectrum have taken Putin’s shilling to appear on RT. From memory Corbyn, Lammy, Danscuk and many others from Labour, even after McDonnell suggested their doing so was unwise. Lib Dem Vince Cable too, plus quite a lot of Tories including Johnson’s idiot father.

I have always understood exactly what RT was. I have always either deleted content or aggressively challenged links to it on this site. I never for a second bought into it being a legitimate news or opinion source. It is far more clever than say Guido Fawkes or Breitbart (two other links I will not host) as it is a disruptor rather than a simple partisan device, but the number of idiots that willingly appeared on it absolutely astonished me.
Adam Curtis has a lot to answer for. He’s a teller of enjoyable shaggy dog stories and that’s how his take on Russian propaganda should be viewed. To the extent that propaganda is responsible for the rise of the right in the UK and France, the propaganda is homegrown and mainstream and centrist politicians make enthusiastic use of it.

I am not denying the rise of the far right, by the way, and never have. I’m denying that Putin is a significant cause of it.
 
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Adam Curtis has a lot to answer for. He’s a teller of enjoyable shaggy dog stories and that’s how his take on Russian propaganda should be viewed. To the extent that propaganda is responsible for the rise of the right in the UK and France, the propaganda is homegrown and mainstream and centrist politicians make enthusiastic use of it.

I am not denying the rise of the far right, by the way, and never have. I’m denying that Putin is a significant cause of it.

Not a cause, but a catalyst.
 
Ditto if they vote for the establishment candidate.

AIUI this could all go away if the centre left vote tactically for Mélenchon.
It's actually the other way round: Mélenchon would gain more from the far left candidates: Hidalgo (Socialist Party) is only polling 2% (Mitterrand must be spinning in his grave), while Roussel (Communist Party) is on 3%, Poutou (New Anticapitalist Party) is on 1% and Artaud (Workers' Struggle) is on 0.5%. If those vanity far left candidacies just called to vote for Mélenchon and their voters followed the recommendation, he would get an immediate 4.5% boost, putting him level with Le Pen. Add Hidalgo's lot and he could challenge Macron for the lead.

But the far left's leaders are incapable of seeing the bigger picture beyond their own personal ambitions. With the exception of Mélenchon, they are a well meaning but mediocre lot. Which is why there are still 5 left wing candidates (and that's after a couple of them dropped out).
 
MLP's party is not very different from some of the weirder elements of Johnson's party, but on balance the CoG of the Conservative Party still seems more to the centre (maybe an optimistic view of the CP).
National Rally are an entirely different beast. Sure, the Tories under Johnson have moved as far right as they have ever done. But be in no doubt, Le Pen is a fascist- the real deal. This is why I resist the lazy labelling of any authoritarian figure as fascist, it obscures the rise of the real thing. Whilst her father was old school openly racist and anti-Semitic, Le Pen jr. was one of those Nazis who (like Nick Griffin in the U.K.) realised there was limited mileage in squads of jack booted, seig heiling thugs. So she smartened up, ditched the skinhead boot boy image and embraced the ‘legitimate grievances of ordinary working people’ (i.e. scapegoat Muslims). However, the quasi-paramilitary thugs are still there, very much in background but very much still there.

If Le Pen wins, shockwaves will reverberate around the world as, for the first time since the 1930’s, a Nazi will have been elected as the head of state of a major advanced nation- chilling. The strength and encouragement this will give to Trump supporters in the US and Farage supporters here, as well as the global far right, will be significant. Let’s hope to god it doesn’t come to pass.
 
But be in no doubt, Le Pen is a fascist- the real deal. This is why I resist the lazy labelling of any authoritarian figure as fascist, it obscures the rise of the real thing. Whilst her father was old school openly racist and anti-Semitic, Le Pen jr. was one of those Nazis who (like Nick Griffin in the U.K.) realised there was limited mileage in squads of jack booted, seig heiling thugs. So she smartened up, ditched the skinhead boot boy image and embraced the ‘legitimate grievances of ordinary working people’ (i.e. scapegoat Muslims).

FWIW I’m happy enough with these well quoted signs allegedly sourced from a poster in the Holocaust Museum gift shop:

  • Powerful and continuing nationalism
  • Disdain for human rights
  • Identification of enemies as a unifying cause
  • Supremacy of the military
  • Rampant sexism
  • Controlled mass media
  • Obsession with national security
  • Religion and government intertwined
  • Corporate power protected
  • Labor [sic] power suppressed
  • Disdain for intellectuals & the arts
  • Obsession with crime & punishment
  • Rampant cronyism & corruption
  • Fraudulent elections
They read about right to me. I view Putin and the US Republican Party as fascist entities and the UK Conservative Party not that far behind. Le Pen is unproven, but I am absolutely sure she’s the real deal.

Michael Rosen’s poem is real nail on the head stuff too:

Fascism: I sometimes fear...

I sometimes fear that
people think that fascism arrives in fancy dress
worn by grotesques and monsters
as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis.

Fascism arrives as your friend.
It will restore your honour,
make you feel proud,
protect your house,
give you a job,
clean up the neighbourhood,
remind you of how great you once were,
clear out the venal and the corrupt,
remove anything you feel is unlike you...

It doesn't walk in saying,
"Our programme means militias, mass imprisonments, transportations, war and persecution."


I’m happy to work with these definitions along with some understanding of how the seeds were initially sewn in Germany in the 1930s. Always better to be wrong about recognising the early signs than to act too late. I really hope France grasps this on Sunday.
 
This is a sad situation.
I will vote Mélanchon.
But I feel that we will get another 5 years of Macron, sadly. Another five gloomy years.
Don’t forget that Macron represents the new right wing in France. A Tory in disguise.
Massive ego and a fascist in my opinion. Jadot is getting the vote in my household. Alas, he only gets one vote, as I am a foreigner and excluded from the proceedings.
 
Massive ego yes, but then what politician doesn’t have one? I don’t like this aspect of his personality either. A fascist no.
Jadot is too much of a centrist, although I respect him and what he stands for. I nearly voted for him.

Trouble is, what I don’t want is another Macron/Le Pen duel (likely to happen again, unfortunately).
So there, European MP and former senator Mélanchon it is.
 
Massive ego yes, but then what politician doesn’t have one? I don’t like this aspect of his personality either. A fascist no.
Jadot is too much of a centrist, although I respect him and what he stands for. I nearly voted for him.

Trouble is, what I don’t want is another Macron/Le Pen duel (likely to happen again, unfortunately).
So there, European MP and former senator Mélanchon it is.
You have voted already today? My missus is on her way now with her daughter, she has the journey to convince her away from Macron.
 
National Rally are an entirely different beast. Sure, the Tories under Johnson have moved as far right as they have ever done. But be in no doubt, Le Pen is a fascist- the real deal. This is why I resist the lazy labelling of any authoritarian figure as fascist, it obscures the rise of the real thing. Whilst her father was old school openly racist and anti-Semitic, Le Pen jr. was one of those Nazis who (like Nick Griffin in the U.K.) realised there was limited mileage in squads of jack booted, seig heiling thugs. So she smartened up, ditched the skinhead boot boy image and embraced the ‘legitimate grievances of ordinary working people’ (i.e. scapegoat Muslims). However, the quasi-paramilitary thugs are still there, very much in background but very much still there.

If Le Pen wins, shockwaves will reverberate around the world as, for the first time since the 1930’s, a Nazi will have been elected as the head of state of a major advanced nation- chilling. The strength and encouragement this will give to Trump supporters in the US and Farage supporters here, as well as the global far right, will be significant. Let’s hope to god it doesn’t come to pass.
I am wary of applying the Nazi label to Le Pen, as Nazi is a pretty specific reference that tends to confuse. But yes, she's a nationalist with a populist agenda, with definite fascist tendencies at work in her party, behind the manicured facade. She has worked hard to present a bland, reassuring image. I hope Mélenchon beats her to the second round, and failing that, that the truly authoritarian and fascist nature of her programme gets a thorough airing before the second round.
 
You have voted already today? My missus is on her way now with her daughter, she has the journey to convince her away from Macron.

We went this morning yes. Let’s hope that Le Pen will be eliminated for good tonight. Fingers crossed.
 
Voter participation only 25.5% at midday, down 3 points on previous presidential votes (but 4 points above 2002, which was the lowest ever).
 


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