Floorstanding speakers - thin versus fat

[Suffolk Tony]

Seems that no one so far has heard them both. I have...So what's best? Well... Actually, they're both excellent, but as I heard them in two different systems I couldn't really say one's better than the other. Sorry, not very helpful. As others have rightly posted, you really, really need to try and listen for yourself somehow.

 

[Antifon]

Buying £5k speakers without auditioning first is a bit bonkers, even if they’re 2nd hand. I wouldn’t do it.

It's just the typical dilemma. It's not bonkers when you consider that there is no way that I'm ever going to hear both speakers side-by-side for a comparison. And I have never felt comfortable about wasting a dealer's time by going and listening to products in their showrooms when I have no intention of ever paying full retail for a speaker in that price range.

I understand your perspective, but the bonkers bit about auditioning is that you are probably going to end up paying dealer prices. If you buy at dealer prices and make a mistake, you will lose a ~lot~ more when you come to change than if you buy at private seller prices!

 

[Antifon]

The PMC Fact 12 speakers are the best speakers I have heard. Great bass depth and impact driven by Bryston power amps at HiFi Lounge. Never heard the ATCs.

I'm embarrassed to admit that my Mission 782's were the best speakers I had ever heard when I bought them! (and actually I still own them). But it's true that at the time there were better speakers around.

Having said that, I've never heard a bad word said about the Fact12's.

Seems that no one so far has heard them both. I have...So what's best? Well... Actually, they're both excellent, but as I heard them in two different systems I couldn't really say one's better than the other. Sorry, not very helpful. As others have rightly posted, you really, really need to try and listen for yourself somehow.

Come on don't sit on the fence!

But therein lies the problem. Hearing each in a different system, in different surroundings with different furnishings and ambient noise. And then you add in the fact that (for me) even the mood I'm in alters how I hear/enjoy music. Perhaps it would be best to just flip a coin.

The one good thing here is that, provided I don't over-pay in the first place, they are both quality speakers that are well regarded. So if I have to swallow my pride and shift them on, I'll probably lose a few hundreds, rather than a thousand+ if I buy at full retail.

 

[Gervais Cote]

Fat or narrow .........at the end, the wife might be the one to decide !
A friend of mine had some Harbeth M40 but when he moved from his house to a condominium, his speakers were looking like restaurant refrigerators in his living room so he had to let them go.
It was 5 years ago and he is now at his third pair of narrow speakers since then and probably not satisfied yet !
On the other hand, a friend of mine built some very narrow monitors with a Wavecore soft dome tweeter and a 15 cm Dayton ES140TIA-8 and he got an f3 of 40 Hz. These little speakers really don’t miss any bass at all even in medium size rooms. Don’t expect a 120 dB out of the though.

 

[Antifon]

Fat or narrow .........at the end, the wife might be the one to decide !
A friend of mine had some Harbeth M40 but when he moved from his house to a condominium, his speakers were looking like restaurant refrigerators in his living room so he had to let them go.
It was 5 years ago and he is now at his third pair of narrow speakers since then and probably not satisfied yet !
On the other hand, a friend of mine built some very narrow monitors with a Wavecore soft dome tweeter and a 15 cm Dayton ES140TIA-8 and he got an f3 of 40 Hz. These little speakers really don’t miss any bass at all even in medium size rooms. Don’t expect a 120 dB out of the though.

I'm fortunate that I don't have anyone else to answer to. If I want fat then that's Ok! (but that may also explain why I still own almost all of the speakers that I have ever bought...).

I have thought seriously about building my own speakers (having priced up some Wilmslow ATC50 replicas). The problem with that is that you have to be ~certain~ that you will like the result. Because secondhand they will be worth next to nothing if you don't and are forced to sell!

 

[lindsayt]

It's probably true these days, though I have heard some in the past. I was lent a pair of 8-driver Videotons in the late 70s and they did not sound good in any way!

So the Videotons are worth what £2? £5? For that price they're a good speaker for filling in as surround sound rear or side speakers in an ultra cheapo AV system.

 

[lindsayt]

I'm fortunate that I don't have anyone else to answer to. If I want fat then that's Ok! (but that may also explain why I still own almost all of the speakers that I have ever bought...).

I have thought seriously about building my own speakers (having priced up some Wilmslow ATC50 replicas). The problem with that is that you have to be ~certain~ that you will like the result. Because secondhand they will be worth next to nothing if you don't and are forced to sell!

Go DIY AND second hand.

Buy 2nd hand drivers and put them together into your own Frankenstein creation.

This is the cheapest way to get World Class by sound quality speakers. Unless you're lucky enough to stumble across one of those once in a lifetime mega bargain right place right time deals on World Class commercial speakers.

I personally wouldn't use any ATC (or other low efficiency) drivers in my DIY raised from dead body parts monster.

And if you don't like the results sell the drivers on for what you paid for them and burn your DIY'd cabinets in your log fireplace.

 

[Antifon]

So the Videotons are worth what £2? £5? For that price they're a good speaker for filling in as surround sound rear or side speakers in an ultra cheapo AV system.

The Videotons were unpriced - lent to me by the importer at the time. I don't think they ever sold any in the UK, and from my personal experience I can understand why! The tiny Videotons (MiniMax, I think) of the time were very highly regarded but I think these monsters were just a "more drivers must be better" experiment by the factory. The chap seemed a bit miffed that I wanted his MA1's instead!

I don't think I will ever DIY now. The main problem is: too many variables! I don't have the inclination to keep modifying the same thing over and over again...

 

[Elephantears]

Room Size?

I'm always baffled why this isn't asked immediately on these threads.

 

[Purité Audio]

Room size really doesn’t matter in the majority of cases.
Keith

 

[JensenHealey]

So...what about those narrow speakers that carry big bass drivers on the deep side panel? That another option to consider.

 

[david ellwood]

Hobsons choice, at least have a listen to some Genelec 1238

 

[Antifon]

Room Size?

I'm always baffled why this isn't asked immediately on these threads.

It's a valid question, as there is a point at which some speakers are overkill. It's a little over 4m by 8m, but slightly odd in that it opens into another smaller room right next to where the speakers will be placed. The room has a fair bit of furniture in it, and I'm lucky that I can put the speakers a fair way away from the walls.

 

[Antifon]

So...what about those narrow speakers that carry big bass drivers on the deep side panel? That another option to consider.

True - it's what Mission did with the 782's and 783's and at their price point (at the time) they were not bad speakers. I've heard rave reviews about Beonicke products using that design but... I've never heard any!

 

[AndyU]

The wider the baffle the lower the frequency at which sound starts to radiate omni-directionally, and over which there is A 6dB reduction in output - unless of course this is compensated for. Here is a link which explains it

http://www.dddac.de/baffle.htm

The ultimately wide baffle would be a wall into which you build the speakers, as they do in studios. This solves some problems, but of course creates others.

I am hopelessly biased towards ATCs, having owned 7s, 25s, 50s and 100s. All good. All worth the money, all really solid, credible, tangible music-transducing devices. So I’d say go with ATCs.

 

[ToTo Man]

Room size really doesn’t matter in the majority of cases.

 

[Hiesteem]

PMC seem to change their range every few weeks

This gave me a chuckle. Not far from the truth either!
I had a long chat with PMC rep at Bristol show in Feb.
They have made a lot of changes to the new 5 series and I felt it was audible.

They look like the old model but they changed the tweeter. Changed the cross over using the design from Fact 12.
They changed the internal air flow system within the cabinet and braced the stand with solid stainless steel bars for strengthening the speaker at the base.

The rep said the bass unit is the same and so I believe is the cabinet.
I have never much liked the 5 series and don't usually give the PMC room more than 5 minutes at Bristol.
Not so this time. I sat listening to many different tracks through the 5.24's.
They have finally got the highs and lows controlled, at least playing through some huge Bryston amplifier, which resembled the skip sitting on my drive, in size.
With speakers and the sort of money you are thinking of paying, it wouldn't be difficult to achieve a top quality sound.
Simply because a good quality speaker can work really well, if it works in your system, in your room. It doesn't necessarily have to be at the top end of the range or your budget.

Oh and I'M gonna be mischievous and suggest giving the Harbeth XD range a listen.
I coudn't get enough of their room.
The C7es- xd also have revised cross over and open the speaker right up.
These are on my most wanted list.

 

[Elephantears]

It's a little over 4m by 8m, but slightly odd in that it opens into another smaller room right next to where the speakers will be placed. The room has a fair bit of furniture in it, and I'm lucky that I can put the speakers a fair way away from the walls.

The world is your oyster then. Have you heard Proac D30R or D30RS? They do not suffer from the leanness that has been mentioned re: PMC. The ribbon tweeters are very well integrated and they are a relatively narrow column. The sound is rich and without fatigue, but also allows for a lot of insight. I'm not generally inclined to floor standers but I really loved these. The other ones I really admire are Devore nines, but they have now been replaced, the replacement is expensive and hard to find in the UK, and they are demanding of amps if you want to hear their full range and capabilities. The Proacs can sound great with a relatively modest amp; e.g a Sonneteer Orton.

 

[Woodface]

ATCs are not expensive, if you go active then you have no real problems matching to the rest of your system. They just play music.

 

[lindsayt]

The Videotons were unpriced - lent to me by the importer at the time. I don't think they ever sold any in the UK, and from my personal experience I can understand why! The tiny Videotons (MiniMax, I think) of the time were very highly regarded but I think these monsters were just a "more drivers must be better" experiment by the factory. The chap seemed a bit miffed that I wanted his MA1's instead!

I don't think I will ever DIY now. The main problem is: too many variables! I don't have the inclination to keep modifying the same thing over and over again...

If you can, get yourself to the annual Owston event.

The one for this year, which was originally planned for the end of this month has been cancelled. For obvious reasons.

It is an ear-opening, highly inspirational DIY themed hi-fi event.