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Finally some high performance Klipsch speakers

Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
What is the word ‘finally’ for in the thread title?

And what is the word ‘some’ for in the thread title?
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'Finally' because up to now all Klipsch speakers I've seen measurements of (most models) showed mediocre to fair performance only.

'Some' is a pair or model, could have used 'a' instead.
 
tuga said:
I can understand if you tell me that it doesn't work for you but you don't seem to accept that I (and others) can use measurements for shortlisting with very good results.

But this thread titled "Finally some high performance Klipsch speakers" merely states a fact, that the Nines are the best performing/measuring speaker ever produced by Klipsch. I don't know what is there to disagree with, unless we go all Trumpian and start creating alternative truths.
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You’re ignoring the subsequent posts you made, in the thread you started. It is reasonable to engage with those, too.
 
As mentioned by @Tony L , Klipsch was a science-driven designer by the way:

btC7tG2.jpeg
 
tuga said:
'Finally' because up to now all Klipsch speakers I've seen measurements of (most models) showed mediocre to fair performance only.

'Some' is a pair or model, could have used 'a' instead.
Click to expand...
So, that’s my point. Your contention that measurements define the perceived performance leads you to conclude that all Klipsch loudspeakers prior to these are mediocre to fair. Which ignores the things that they do so well, and which are important to many who love what they do.

Actually, it’s ’finally some…’ which is, as you explain, essentially saying ‘Klipsch have spent 75 years making bad loudspeakers’. You can't seriously expect that position to go unchallenged, nor the premise that underpins it, surely?
 
tuga said:
But this thread titled "Finally some high performance Klipsch speakers" merely states a fact, that the Nines are the best performing/measuring speaker ever produced by Klipsch. I don't know what is there to disagree with, unless we go all Trumpian and start creating alternative truths.
Click to expand...

Klipsch speakers are not bad measuring. Here’s an ancient REW plot from back when I owned MkI LaScalas.

16633260943_418a49f1e7_c.jpg


That is a very basic mic on the sofa in-room plot, both channels driven using a £100 Amptastic T-Amp to power them (it was my TV system!).

Now go and compare those distortion figures with whatever little ported box speaker you use! A flat line doesn’t tell the whole truth. Let alone when it comes to headroom and dynamic ability. Again, I’m in no way arguing they were perfect, there was some very obvious colouration from a resonance in the bass horn box (which doesn’t show itself on the plot, but was obvious to the ear and certainly triggered me), but they could do things many speakers can’t even dream of. You may not have even heard speakers that can do what I’m trying to describe. I hadn’t. Once you ‘get’ what huge high-efficiency horns are about you hear everything else slightly differently from that point onwards. Same with good panels, but in a different way. You just miss what they do and other speakers can’t. The Tannoys get me close as they have the efficiency and horn mid, they also have even more scale, but they’ll never have the full multi-way horn thing of the Klipsch. Proper horn-loaded bass is a whole different animal to any cone in any box. Again it is a dynamic/note envelope thing.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
So, that’s my point. Your contention that measurements define the perceived performance leads you to conclude that all Klipsch loudspeakers prior to these are mediocre to fair. Which ignores the things that they do so well, and which are important to many who love what they do.

Actually, it’s ’finally some…’ which is, as you explain, essentially saying ‘Klipsch have spent 75 years making bad loudspeakers’. You can't seriously expect that position to go unchallenged, nor the premise that underpins it, surely?
Click to expand...
Where did you get that idea?
Measurements define accuracy and most parameters have one or more audible repercussions.
 
I’m not making this up, it’s been researched and published.
For some to me strange reason many audiophiles readily believe in audio reviewers but not researchers.
 
tuga said:
Where did you get that idea?
Measurements define accuracy and most parameters have one or more audible repercussions.
Click to expand...
The thing about measurements is that they are invariably taken in a steady-state condition. Not a dynamic, music situation. So they only define accuracy to a steady state situation. And the steady state situation assumes there is no interaction between the measured parameters, or that the interaction remains consistent across all situations.

Any claim to accuracy in a highly dynamic musical situation is mostly extrapolated, on the basis that the steady state performance defines all the important parameters. I remain unconvinced that it does.
 
Joe P said:
Given the choice between The Nines and Klipschorns, I know what I'd choose.
;–)
Joe
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Yeah, do you think I could get them up two flights of stairs?

The dealer I bought my Fortes from had a pair "lounging" in his office come store room. I'd love to hear a pair in a decent room....
 
tuga said:
'Finally' because up to now all Klipsch speakers I've seen measurements of (most models) showed mediocre to fair performance only.

'Some' is a pair or model, could have used 'a' instead.
Click to expand...
Maybe "high performance", subjective, should have been "measure well", objective, should have been a more accurate title, then we could have all agreed and gone home...
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
The thing about measurements is that they are invariably taken in a steady-state condition. Not a dynamic, music situation. So they only define accuracy to a steady state situation. And the steady state situation assumes there is no interaction between the measured parameters, or that the interaction remains consistent across all situations.

Any claim to accuracy in a highly dynamic musical situation is mostly extrapolated, on the basis that the steady state performance defines all the important parameters. I remain unconvinced that it does.
Click to expand...

There's a multi-tone measurement which simulates music.
This is how Klippel describes it:

The multi-tone distortion measurement uncovers a much more realistic picture here. Since the multi-tone stimulus frequencies are distributed over the full audio band, all distortion mechanisms (incl. intermodulation) are triggered. This is very similar to music playback, but neglected by pure sinusoidal THD tests.

Multi-tone Distortion

www.klippel.de www.klippel.de


You can compare the performance of the Nines and the Heresy IVs below:

Klipsch Heresy IV Review (Redux!)

Klipsch Heresy IV Review
www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Klipsch The Nines Speaker Review

Klipsch In-Room Gold LCR Review
www.erinsaudiocorner.com
 
chiily said:
Maybe "high performance", subjective, should have been "measure well", objective, should have been a more accurate title, then we could have all agreed and gone home...
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What do you measure if not performance? Surely you can't measure 'musicality', or 'realism', or 'soundstage', or 'PRaT', or 'fun factor', or 'trouserflapping'.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I’m not clear: is the multi-tone test numerous superposed tones, or numerous superposed rapidly changing tones?
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This is from the Application Note available at the bottom of the link:

Stimulus signal
A multi-tone signal is a steady-state signal comprising a multitude of tones generated at known frequencies. A logarithmic spacing of the tones is used typically. The number is usually limited to 3 – 12 tones per octave to ensure a sufficiently sparse excitation spec- trum for distortion analysis. The amplitude of the tones can be adjusted over frequency to represent a normal audio signal.

 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
So, another steady state test then. That’s what I inferred. Thanks for clarifying.
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What do you mean? It's not good enough?

This is what Klippel, one of the most prominent team of experts, say about the measurement:

Multi-tone excitation signals are optimal for the measurement of the overall performance of speakers because they provide similar to normal working conditions in the final application. Like a typical audio signal such as music, it generates all kinds of distortion such as harmonic and intermodulation distortion.

I hope you won't now say that you know they're wrong...
 
I won’t say that, but they assert they are right without saying why. It seems to me to be unlikely that a steady state set of tones can simulate the complex, almost chaotic interactions of the music in a symphony orchestra playing something like Stravinsky or Shostakovich at full throttle. Some of those tones are big in transients (percussion) and highly variable, some have more steady state tones, albeit often rapidly changing in frequency and volume level. But I guess if the expert in measurement says his few dozen steady state tones replicates that, then who am I to argue?
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I won’t say that, but they assert they are right without saying why. It seems to me to be unlikely that a steady state set of tones can simulate the complex, almost chaotic interactions of the music in a symphony orchestra playing something like Stravinsky or Shostakovich at full throttle. Some of those tones are big in transients (percussion) and highly variable, some have more steady state tones, albeit often rapidly changing in frequency and volume level. But I guess if the expert in measurement says his few dozen steady state tones replicates that, then who am I to argue?
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You are right that the Multi-Tone measurement won't fully characterise the performance of the speaker, that is why you need all the other tests that the Klippel system also performs, including the Instantaneous Compression Test I mentioned on the second page.
These are the Klippel NFS standard measured parameters:

Impulse response
Magnitude and phase response
Harmonic distortion
Scanning mechanical vibration
Time-frequency analysis
Voltage and current
Electrical impedance
Voice coil displacement
DC displacement – dynamic offset the voice coil
Rub & Buzz and impulsive distortion
Air leakage noise
Far field sound pressure on-axis
Near field measurement
Directional radiation characteristics
 
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