EHRC report into Labour

[Tony L]

Just to add, nobody has made any anti-semitic comment in this thread, that some people appear to think there has been only goes to show it is likely impossible for Labour to sort.

I’ve deleted one so far, a frothy rant from a usual suspect about Palestine, the ‘Jewish government’ (the direct equivalent to attacking say a “black government” in SA). FWIW I’ve always believed most of Labour’s anti-Semitism issue is one of communication. Too many people who lack the intellect or articulation to differentiate between a race and an elected government in a nation state, let alone one surrounded by extremist religious dictatorships and monarchies intent on its destruction. The party did far too little to address this, which as much as ever is a matter of education/messaging. I would in no way defend a lot of Israel’s actions, but neither would I ever have to even remotely breach IHRA guidelines in order to criticise them.

There is obviously a huge double standard here as Labour, allegedly being a left of centre progressive party (though I see little evidence of that in reality) simply can not tolerate racism, or criticism thereof, but the Tories can. FWIW I view the Tory Party, like its US Republican equivalent, as being institutionally racist. Just no other way of looking at it. Both parties’ wealth and power can be directly tracked back to human trafficking/slavery, imperialism, violence etc, much of that money and the assets stolen is still pushing an elite through Eton, Oxbridge and straight onto the benches of the HoC where the same mindset can be seen today with ‘Go Home’ vans, the Windrush deportation, Clandestine Channel Commanders, putting refugees in container park concentration camps etc etc. The sickening thing is they even sell this divisive nationalism and exceptionalism as election rhetoric and people actually buy it.

tldr; Labour are screwed.

 

[richardkendell]

Worth pointing out that he didn't say the report overstated the problem: the worst he's said about the report is "While I do not accept all of its findings, I trust its recommendations will be swiftly implemented to help move on from this period."

Given that the Labour Party was widely described as a threat to Jewish safety, as institutionally antisemitic and so on, it's simply undeniable that the problem was overstated. I haven't read the report yet but by all accounts it doesn't support any of the wilder claims, so it's not unreasonable that Corbyn would feel at least somewhat vindicated, especially given what he personally was accused of.

What's odd, if also predictable, is that the report is being reported as if it did confirm the wilder allegations. What it does confirm is bad enough, you'd have thought, but apparently not bad enough for many. Corbyn's suspension serves a useful purpose then, in that it's what you'd expect to happen if the report had confirmed everything that's been said over the last few years.

Anyway you have to ask yourself if it's good that in order to avoid being suspended from the party, members are expected to state publicly that something everybody knows happened - real problems within the party were exploited for factional purposes - definitely did not happen. While it's happening to the former leader. I mean, is that a good place to start, if you're trying to fight antisemitism?

I think there were two questions:
1 Was there an unacceptable level of antisemitism in parts of the labour party and I think the answer was "Yes"
2 Was the antisemitism adequately addressed and I think the answer was "No"
To say that the problem was "overstated" seems to infer that either there was not much antisemitism and "not much" is acceptable or the party's response to the issue was "good enough". I am not convinced on either count.

 

[Enfield boy]

Well it would, wouldn’t it.

I like the sentiment, not the gratuitous erotica of course. Or should that be eroticum as it's only one picture?

 

[richardkendell]

I like the sentiment, not the gratuitous erotica of course. Or should that be eroticum as it's only one picture?

They look like our kitchen chairs, but perhaps I have missed the point

 

[doctorf]

Well it would, wouldn’t it.

It wasn’t her who said it, but who cares?
Great pic!!

 

[Joe Hutch]

Just to add, nobody has made any anti-semitic comment in this thread, that some people appear to think there has been only goes to show it is likely impossible for Labour to sort.

There's none so blind ... Wouldn't you say that post 19 is just slightly anti-Semitic?

 

[ks.234]

It wasn’t her who said it, but who cares?
Great pic!!

I know. Which is why I didn’t say it was her.

 

[Seanm]

I think there were two questions:
1 Was there an unacceptable level of antisemitism in parts of the labour party and I think the answer was "Yes"
2 Was the antisemitism adequately addressed and I think the answer was "No"
To say that the problem was "overstated" seems to infer that either there was not much antisemitism and "not much" is acceptable or the party's response to the issue was "good enough". I am not convinced on either count.

I think if that was all that Labour, and Corbyn personally, had been accused of then any attempt to deny either claim would have been completely out of order, then as now. But it wasn't, not by a long chalk.

 

[gavreid]

I think if that was all that Labour, and Corbyn personally, had been accused of then any attempt to deny either claim would have been completely out of order, then as now. But it wasn't, not by a long chalk.

These kinds of questions have been answered in detail elsewhere. I've posted this link previously

"There were no witches in Salem; Jewish elders did not gather in a graveyard at night; a Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy did not target Nazi Germany. The allegation that Labour is rife with antisemitism is of a piece with these fantastic antecedents. To judge by the available evidence, the truth of this controversy lies not in the middle but at one pole: there is no ‘Labour antisemitism crisis’. Should new evidence be unearthed which demonstrates that antisemitism is widespread within the Labour Party, the issue will doubtless warrant renewed attention. In the meantime, the rational response to a baseless allegation is to dismiss it."

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.or...ire-the-myth-of-a-labour-antisemitism-crisis/

 

[Tony L]

There's none so blind ... Wouldn't you say that post 19 is just slightly anti-Semitic?

Not anymore!

PS For clarity: removed along with one that quoted it, so not even the same poster as the post currently holding that number.

 

[Seanm]

These kinds of questions have been answered in detail elsewhere. I've posted this link previously

"There were no witches in Salem; Jewish elders did not gather in a graveyard at night; a Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy did not target Nazi Germany. The allegation that Labour is rife with antisemitism is of a piece with these fantastic antecedents. To judge by the available evidence, the truth of this controversy lies not in the middle but at one pole: there is no ‘Labour antisemitism crisis’. Should new evidence be unearthed which demonstrates that antisemitism is widespread within the Labour Party, the issue will doubtless warrant renewed attention. In the meantime, the rational response to a baseless allegation is to dismiss it."

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.or...ire-the-myth-of-a-labour-antisemitism-crisis/

I just don't agree, have to say. I mean I can't see it being true of any institution, but it very visibly isn't true of Labour. The stuff Livingstone was coming out with was antisemitic, for instance.

 

[ks.234]

I think there were two questions:
1 Was there an unacceptable level of antisemitism in parts of the labour party and I think the answer was "Yes"
2 Was the antisemitism adequately addressed and I think the answer was "No"
To say that the problem was "overstated" seems to infer that either there was not much antisemitism and "not much" is acceptable or the party's response to the issue was "good enough". I am not convinced on either count.

Agreed, the answer to Q1 is a ‘yes’, but the next question has to be, which parts?

Agreed, the answer to Q2 is a ‘no’, but by who? Antisemitism claims went un-investigated by the NEC for years when it was under the control of Iain McNicol, when Jenny Formby took over from McNicol, investigations and actions against Antisemitism were stepped up by several orders of magnitude

 

[Brian]

I’ve deleted one so far, a frothy rant from a usual suspect about Palestine, the ‘Jewish government’ (the direct equivalent to attacking say a “black government” in SA). FWIW I’ve always believed most of Labour’s anti-Semitism issue is one of communication. Too many people who lack the intellect or articulation to differentiate between a race and an elected government in a nation state, let alone one surrounded by extremist religious dictatorships and monarchies intent on its destruction. The party did far too little to address this, which as much as ever is a matter of education/messaging. I would in no way defend a lot of Israel’s actions, but neither would I ever have to even remotely breach IHRA guidelines in order to criticise them.

There is obviously a huge double standard here as Labour, allegedly being a left of centre progressive party (though I see little evidence of that in reality) simply can not tolerate racism, or criticism thereof, but the Tories can. FWIW I view the Tory Party, like its US Republican equivalent, as being institutionally racist. Just no other way of looking at it. Both parties’ wealth and power can be directly tracked back to human trafficking/slavery, imperialism, violence etc, much of that money and the assets stolen is still pushing an elite through Eton, Oxbridge and straight onto the benches of the HoC where the same mindset can be seen today with ‘Go Home’ vans, the Windrush deportation, Clandestine Channel Commanders, putting refugees in container park concentration camps etc etc. The sickening thing is they even sell this divisive nationalism and exceptionalism as election rhetoric and people actually buy it.

tldr; Labour are screwed.

I didn’t see a rant, so missed that one.

The point is, Labour should not be screwed, no party is perfect. If people won’t support them and await the perfect party all they will end up with is the tories again in 2024.

 

[gavreid]

I just don't agree, have to say. I mean I can't see it being true of any institution, but it very visibly isn't true of Labour. The stuff Livingstone was coming out with was antisemitic, for instance.

You're entitled to your opinion - the important points here are being made by Jewish Labour members, and in this case as part of a PhD thesis and a book, which is not quite so easily explained away.

"In written submissions collected over the course of a week in 2018, nearly 150 Jewish Labour members testified that the claims against Labour bore no relation to their own experiences in the party. Prominent ‘Labour antisemitism’-mongers themselves avowed, as recently as 2016, that they had ‘[n]ever experienced any incidence of anti-Semitism from within the party’.[29] These testimonies are difficult to reconcile with allegations that the party is over-run with antisemitism."

 

[Joe Hutch]

I’ve deleted one so far, a frothy rant from a usual suspect about Palestine, the ‘Jewish government’ (the direct equivalent to attacking say a “black government” in SA). FWIW I’ve always believed most of Labour’s anti-Semitism issue is one of communication. Too many people who lack the intellect or articulation to differentiate between a race and an elected government in a nation state, let alone one surrounded by extremist religious dictatorships and monarchies intent on its destruction. The party did far too little to address this, which as much as ever is a matter of education/messaging. I would in no way defend a lot of Israel’s actions, but neither would I ever have to even remotely breach IHRA guidelines in order to criticise them.

It isn't just Israel/Palestine, though. The left-wing anti-capitalist viewpoint sometimes equates the evils of capitalism with Judaism; hence the stereotypical portrayal of bankers with hooked noses in cartoons. This dates back to Karl Marx, whose writings include a fair amount of anti-semitism.

 

[sq225917]

@gavreid, an excellent article, thoroughly researched that should be read by anyone looking for balance to the EHRC investigation.

The simple truth is that this is a media created issue, blown out of all proportion to the number of presented cases worthy of further investigation.

 

[ks.234]

It isn't just Israel/Palestine, though. The left-wing anti-capitalist viewpoint sometimes equates the evils of capitalism with Judaism; hence the stereotypical portrayal of bankers with hooked noses in cartoons. This dates back to Karl Marx, whose writings include a fair amount of anti-semitism.

As does much of everything else.

 

[Seanm]

It isn't just Israel/Palestine, though. The left-wing anti-capitalist viewpoint sometimes equates the evils of capitalism with Judaism; hence the stereotypical portrayal of bankers with hooked noses in cartoons. This dates back to Karl Marx, whose writings include a fair amount of anti-semitism.

Now that is bollocks, and dangerous too. It's become quite a thing for Conservatives to equate criticism of capitalism with antisemitism (in between forming groups called the Grand Wizards and denouncing Cultural Marxism). Given that most of the crises we're currently enduring stem from capitalism in general and financial capitalism in particular, which we're going to have to address to avoid various meltdowns, including eco-catastrophe, I really thing it's best not to mix the two up.

 

[Tony L]

The point is, Labour should not be screwed, no party is perfect. If people won’t support them and await the perfect party all they will end up with is the tories again in 2024.

The problem is as the west teeters on the edge of ethnic nationalism, even fascism, Labour have just been knocked out of the ring. Any argument that needs to be made against racism can be countered with a ‘well Labour are more racist, report says so!’ response. We live in a global society where the institutional racism of the political right is actually killing lots of people; ‘Hostile Environment’, Windrush, Grenfell, Brexit anti-refugee racism, George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Charlottesville etc etc, and now in the UK we have a mortally wounded opposition that can be slapped back in its box with a simple soundbite. Not good.

 

[Cav]

....
tldr; Labour are screwed.

I doubt the vast majority of Labour voters will see this as a reason to cease to vote Labour.