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Edward Snowden

thebiglebowski said:
I did have a long winded tyrade of abuse typed out for Mick and his stupid selfish I'm alright jack attitude but you have worded it much better so I've deleted it.
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I'm sure Mick can look after himself, but you do not advance your views much by attacking him and impugning his motives rather than dealing with his argument. I don't think that it is respectable debate.

If he is happy sacrificing some of his (and his friends') liberty for security, that is a reasonable argument for him to make to which reasonable counter-arguments might be made.
 
More people die from falling off stepladders than these so called terrorists could ever be expected to kill.
When we have the cover ups and conspiracies such as Hilsborough, police infiltrating peaceful organisations like Climate Camp and Greenpeace and for god sake, those in support of Stephen Lawrence's family we have ample evidence to suggst we should be very wary of entrusting any liberty to these spooks-we are the bloody enemy.
 
stephen bennett said:
As for Snowden letting terrorists know how they're being tracked, that's not the issue. THEY already know.
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I think you can safely assert that they know they are being tracked, or that attempts are made to track them. I'm not sure how you can substantiate that they know how.
What he's revealed is how much the rest of us are being illegally monitored.
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Actually, haven't the Guardian's revelations have been shown to be either exaggerated or untrue? If the NSA is monitoring foreign nationals it is not breaking the law. If GCHQ is operating outside territorial waters under a warrant from the Foreign Secretary, it is not breaking the law.

We might wish the law to be something else but that is different from saying that these bodies are breaking the law.
 
This is funny.A whistle blower reveals the extent of NSA and GCHQ's SECRET surveillance and some people believe the assurances from ministers on behalf of those doing the sniffing.
 
cooky1257 said:
More people die from falling off stepladders than these so called terrorists could ever be expected to kill.
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Quite. And many many more British and Americans have been killed due to disastrous foreign policy (and wars) than by terrorists.
 
cooky1257 said:
This is funny.A whistle blower reveals the extent of NSA and GCHQ's SECRET surveillance and some people believe the assurances from ministers on behalf of those doing the sniffing.
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Even funnier in a sinister way is that Snowden is the one being called a criminal! :eek:
 
sean99 said:
I see it slightly differently. I don't think the growth of the state is the goal. I think the state is being used as a proxy to control the proles for the corporations.
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Mussolini once said that fascism should really be called corporatism, because the defining characteristic of fascism is the merger of corporate and government power. That in a nutshell is what I would define my political views as in opposition to, hence my equal suspicion of the statist/collectivist left and the statist/collectivist right. Different, opposed even, though the philosophies might be they are both dangerous because they concentrate power. For me the answer is a mixture of minarchism, localism and true lassie fair capitalism as that would disperse power to an extent where no actor is in a place to significantly abuse it. I can understand how people might instead find themselves looking to anarchosyndicalism etc. and can respect those sorts of individualist left positions, but I do find a lot of 'moderate left' positions inherently selfcontradictory.
 
Mick P said:
Chaps

The safety and security of me and my friends is more important than if I am being bugged or whatever.

Personally I do nothing wrong and have no real objection to my telephone calls or emails being bugged. What is more important is catching crooks and terrorists.

If you are normal and honest, no one is interested in you.

Regards

Mick
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History tells us that if you swap freedom for security, you end up with neither.
 
LesW said:
History tells us that if you swap freedom for security, you end up with neither.
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History and Ben Franklin Les!

I quite like this one from Thomas Jefferson: "When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty".

The USA needs to remember where it started and the principles of it's founding fathers!
 
psi310398 said:
If the NSA is monitoring foreign nationals it is not breaking the law. If GCHQ is operating outside territorial waters under a warrant from the Foreign Secretary, it is not breaking the law.
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So what? This is legal-language BS.

The NSA and GCHQ swap data. This means that one organization is spying for the other, so that they can mither on that they don't snoop on their own citizens.

Edward Snowden has asked Ecuador for refuge. He plans to go to there via Cuba and Venezuela.

Wikileaks were instrumental in helping Snowden leave Hong Kong. It's great to know that they are operating while Julian Assange remains in London's Ecuadorian Embassy.

John Pilger has his own take on the leaks, which I will put up on a separate thread tomorrow.

Jack
 
Rather impressed with little Ecuador these days. No doubt the CIA are trying to find out exactly where it is: expect political events.
 
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