I think in this case the old cabling was probably deteriorated to such an extent that the voltage would have been wandering and the mains stability would have been beyond the limits able to be catered for by the mains transformers etc. in the hifi system without affecting the performance of the units. In most circumstances however I think the notion that mains cables and other such things like a dedicated spur can cause a huge leap in sound quality is basically bollocks! If people knew the quality of the cables in the consumer unit, to the consumer unit, at the substation etc. they'd realise that installing a nice shiny mains cable in a tiny portion of the chain that gets power to the hi-fi is not going to make any difference.
Don't let anyone tell you mains supply doesn't matter
- Thread starter kjb
- Start date
Mike Reed
pfm Member
A radial circuit back to the consumer unit. If shared, this would benefit from all being new rather than simply taking off a radial.
If you have kit with toroidal trannies, dedicated mains of some sort does improve things. Not sure about valved kit, from my experience; different trannies.
HOCKMAN, you say 'spur' but I guess it's a RADIAL circuit, esp. as you say nothing shares it. Unusual to have 3 phases supplying power, though. (A spur comes from anther circuit, by definition).
See my comment above.
Of course.
I have 8 radial circuits (6 x 10mm2 + 2 x 6mm2) going to a separate C.U. with individual RCBOs (combo of mcb and rcd). One circuit per piece of kit. When I had majority upper Naim + Meridian CDP the benefits were obvious even though my house was rewired only 20 years ago. Now I have majority valved kit I do wonder, but the rather complex and time-consuming installation is there and doesn't eat anything, so.... I have an earth spike attached to the 8 circuits, because my common house bonding allows (dodgy if not). Everything is hard-wired as I don't like mains plugs, fuses or sockets. Bit of a hassle for kit (like my mono's) which have captive leads, though.
Whaleblue
Southbound
I’m no expert, but let me expand that analogy using what I do understand. Experts can confirm or correct, perhaps?
Add to the process of cake-making the act of filtering the flour. Now also assume that the master baker uses pre-sieved flour from a large tin that’s kept constantly topped up.
That’s a closer analogy to the way power supplies work - meaning that the components in your HiFi should never run out of high quality flour (erm, electricity!)
One has to accept that incoming electricity doesn’t have the same vagaries in fundamental nature as flour does, but I hope this makes some sense in explaining why 99.999% of the time your (well designed) kit can handle the supply it receives and “sound the same”.
mansr
Objectionist
A cake analogy might not be a bad idea. Under anything resembling normal conditions, the cake is not affected by the quality of electricity powering the oven. However, if the voltage drops substantially, the oven will struggle to maintain the set temperature, resulting in a weirdly baked cake.
fegs
pfm Member
I think the point to make here is that prior to the incident and subsequent remedial work the electricity supply wasn't fit for purpose, now a new cable has been installed the supply is now fit for purpose.
What you're hearing now is what your equipment should have sounded like in the first place
Glad you're sorted
What you're hearing now is what your equipment should have sounded like in the first place
Glad you're sorted
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Could you have used self-raising flour for a bit of levitation?
No, that's a half-baked analogy.I have little electrical knowledge, but surely it's obvious that the flow of electricity depends upon just that; a flow. Impediments to this flow, from poor condition or inadequate cabling, oxidisation of contacts, loose contacts and indeed, the number of contacts increasing impedance and not least, if the supply is adequate for its number of purposes.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
You're getting there anyway... Unlike the posts from many others which have as much in common with reality as the wisdom of david icke.
A reservoir being kept at a constant level by buckets full of water being flung in from a high cliff above it is about as close an analogy as you'll get and in many ways a very good one. There's nothing "smooth", "flowing", "steady", "clean" about the process at all! Quite violent really... 100m cliff, here comes another bucket full... sploosshh!!!
A large flywheel being kept rotating by energy from repeated hammer blows would be another way of looking at it.
Both fit. This is why a smoothing capacitor has its name... smoothing those hammer blows into steady rotation... the bigger the smoothing cap = the larger and heavier the flywheel and hence the less noticeable is each hammer blow to the smoothness of the rotation.
A smoothing cap is also known as a reservoir capacitor funnily enough
The bigger the reservoir the less effect each bucket full has... hence "ripple voltage" of a power supply and "ripple current rating" of electrolytics! See I said it was a good analogyWater taken to cliff edge, hoyed in, drops 100m, sploosshh!! All the mains believer rubbish is akin to making claims that the colour of the bucket matters, or whether the bloke at the end of the bucket brigade is wearing trainers or brogues matters, or whether or not he's singing a happy or sad tune when he flings it off the cliff etc etc... all that's relevant in reality is the water leaving the bucket and falling a long drop into the reservoir.
It should obvious to the sane that a gold plated, polished and very expensive bucket (ie foo mains cables etc etc) can't make any difference and that to think otherwise is ridiculous. Electricity being invisible etc and a complete mystery to many unfortunately tends to breed such ridiculous beliefs!
kjb
Proof reading not always a strength
That obviously includes the electrical engineers i spoke to who were reconnecting our house to the newly installed mains this morning and repairing the substation.
Makes me wonder how they got their jobs.
Out of genuine interest, two questions:
1) Given your engineering background, how would you explain the difference between 1) the electricity from the old mains cable that blew out and ii) the electricity from the mobile generator and 3) the electricity from the new cable which all of the engineers on site said has a capacity that is now standard for houses with high usage.
2) How has that affected my hi fi? One one thing I'm 100% clear about is that it sounded different under each power source.
I'm really interested in understanding what led to the change in the quality of what I can hear. It also affected our lights. We have a dimmer switch in the kitchen that has always flickered when turned low that since the new mains cable went live, works perfectly.
I've always been of the view that power treatments were snake oil, a bit like that more expensive petrol that is meant to clean your engine and give you better economy but now I'm now wondering....
I should stress that all of the changes happened on the spur from the main grid that serves our road, nothing at all changed in the house. As a non expert I find it all quite intriguing.
mansr
Objectionist
What if the bloke is listening to music on headphones? Surely it matters whether the headphone wires are copper or silver.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
That obviously includes the electrical engineers who were reconnecting our house to the newly installed mains this morning and repairing the substation.
Makes me wonder how they got their jobs.
They will probably have been just "operatives" who know very little about electrical theory but are great at digging holes and lifting heavy reels of cable. Also probably told you whatever you wanted to hear.... did you expect that after doing all their work and with all the expense involved they were likely to say any different?
Even if they were electrical engineers (unlikely), in the UK version of that job description it does not cover needing to understand anything about such things as how a hi fi power supply or amp works. I often have customers who are electrical engineers!!
I on the other hand am a pro electronic engineer who has specialised in audio and hi fi equipment for most of my career and actually designed many, many power supplies and amplifiers. It therefore beggars belief that people who may just about be able to wire a 13A plug think they are in a position to argue!
Look up "The Bandwagon Fallacy"
kjb
Proof reading not always a strength
Yep - I know about your expertise and background and am quite envious of your skills. They are obviously very different to those who were rebuilding the road's system although some of them were quite technical in earlier conversations explaining what had happened and what they were going to do to fix it.
So why did the electricity from the generator affect the way the lights worked and the hi fi sounded? I'm genuinely curious. I've always thought electricity was electricity and pretty constant wherever you live - and have never thought hi fi sounds better with the washing machine turned off!
So why did the electricity from the generator affect the way the lights worked and the hi fi sounded? I'm genuinely curious. I've always thought electricity was electricity and pretty constant wherever you live - and have never thought hi fi sounds better with the washing machine turned off!
fegs
pfm Member
An interesting point in all of this is the title "Electrical Engineer", it's such a wide ranging term encompassing so many disciplines.
Whilst I'm not doubting the ability and credentials of the engineers who fixed your supply, their field of expertise differs massively to say Jez's
I'm also employed as an "Electrical Engineer" but know next to nothing about installing cables in the road etc, I know even less about audio!
My job involves control systems for machine tools and industrial processes, I work with PLC's, Servo motors, Drives etc and have designed and built control panels, but you wouldn't want me rewiring your house!!
Whilst I'm not doubting the ability and credentials of the engineers who fixed your supply, their field of expertise differs massively to say Jez's
I'm also employed as an "Electrical Engineer" but know next to nothing about installing cables in the road etc, I know even less about audio!
My job involves control systems for machine tools and industrial processes, I work with PLC's, Servo motors, Drives etc and have designed and built control panels, but you wouldn't want me rewiring your house!!
The original cable buried in the road would have been specified for a much lower load than it would have experiencing when it failed. Pulling excess current through a cable generates heat which increases the resistance off the cable resulting in increased voltage drop and possible eventual failure of the cable through overheating. The generation set would have been producing a clean 240v sinewave unaffected by current draw from the rest of the street on the same phase as you.
I've seen the cables going into a factory melt/burn because they were overloaded. They had to put a thicker cable in. I don't know what the cables were made of. Each conductor was about an inch thick and they were heavy but you could bend it with your hands, just, so it wasn't steel. Looked like an aluminium alloy.
Chris
pfm Member
Something similar happened to me when they installed a new digital meter by my gate which allows them to take readings from the comfort of their office "home". My previous meter was from the Spanish Civil War with ceramic fuse holders and real fuse wire which I bought on a card from Woolworths about 30 years ago. Stll got it somewhere. Sound improved noticeably and for free.
mansr
Objectionist
This is one cycle of the mains at my desk a little while ago (solid blue) along with a pure sine wave (dashed red):
Darth Vader
From the Dark Side
You're getting there anyway... Unlike the posts from many others which have as much in common with reality as the wisdom of david icke.
A reservoir being kept at a constant level by buckets full of water being flung in from a high cliff above it is about as close an analogy as you'll get and in many ways a very good one. There's nothing "smooth", "flowing", "steady", "clean" about the process at all! Quite violent really... 100m cliff, here comes another bucket full... sploosshh!!!
A large flywheel being kept rotating by energy from repeated hammer blows would be another way of looking at it.
Both fit. This is why a smoothing capacitor has its name... smoothing those hammer blows into steady rotation... the bigger the smoothing cap = the larger and heavier the flywheel and hence the less noticeable is each hammer blow to the smoothness of the rotation.
A smoothing cap is also known as a reservoir capacitor funnily enough
Water taken to cliff edge, hoyed in, drops 100m, sploosshh!! All the mains believer rubbish is akin to making claims that the colour of the bucket matters, or whether the bloke at the end of the bucket brigade is wearing trainers or brogues matters, or whether or not he's singing a happy or sad tune when he flings it off the cliff etc etc... all that's relevant in reality is the water leaving the bucket and falling a long drop into the reservoir.
It should obvious to the sane that a gold plated, polished and very expensive bucket (ie foo mains cables etc etc) can't make any difference and that to think otherwise is ridiculous. Electricity being invisible etc and a complete mystery to many unfortunately tends to breed such ridiculous beliefs!
Hmmm. Thats not the way I remember this stuff! Maybe words have changed and I won't say
Of course nowadays cheapo designs may well only use the one cap and rely on downwards voltage regulation and decoupling caps. Words can mean whatever you want them to mean in todays dream world society. Just ask Alice.
Cheers,
DV