Does a separate mains spur for hifi make a difference?
- Thread starter junk01
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MVV
pfm Member
Ah, I think we will find almost everyone here who has heard superb results from their dedicated supply hasn't done that.
If you have a decent electrical system you might not need any alterations.
A very poor supply can be greatly improved, you obviously can not do anything about the external supply to your property but you can make a massive a difference to the internal supply.
With a domestic ring main a fridge for example can put the noise it can create back onto the ring which is why they are not ideal. I personally have dedicated radials but a dedicated ring main for a hi-fi system will also work well.
It is quite easy to obtain a simple 13 amp "plug in" device to check voltage levels which can have an adverse affect upon a system.
I have lived in a property without any problems , so no need for expenditure. My current property was an absolute nightmare and expenditure and improving my electrics has allowed my system to work as the designers intended.
I suspect that some of the retail sellers and designers would be mortified if they heard components through a poor supply.
A very poor supply can be greatly improved, you obviously can not do anything about the external supply to your property but you can make a massive a difference to the internal supply.
With a domestic ring main a fridge for example can put the noise it can create back onto the ring which is why they are not ideal. I personally have dedicated radials but a dedicated ring main for a hi-fi system will also work well.
It is quite easy to obtain a simple 13 amp "plug in" device to check voltage levels which can have an adverse affect upon a system.
I have lived in a property without any problems , so no need for expenditure. My current property was an absolute nightmare and expenditure and improving my electrics has allowed my system to work as the designers intended.
I suspect that some of the retail sellers and designers would be mortified if they heard components through a poor supply.
It seems to me to be bad design if kit hums badly when DC is present. I have tried kit that does this - most doesn't - and rejected it.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Maybe you should've read it, because you'd learn that it was a radial circuit you adapted, not a spur !!! Besides, I've come across your comment before re. running an extension to the hall or wherever. If you'd installed anything resembling a proper dedicated hifi mains supply and compared that, you'd've experienced a difference with Naim (and probably Linn et al). Actually, you would'nt have needed a comparison as you'd've heard the improvement and been happy.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
Strangely enough as a designer of amplifiers and pro EE I hear no difference and would be shocked if I did as it would mean the laws of physics were wrong.... Mains has no effect on sound quality.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
You've taken the advice of all those that start with "I know nothing about electricity but...." and completely ignored everything said, in this and another similar thread you started, by engineers and knowledgeable DIYers who explained in some detail why you don't need to do anything to your mains... Yep that's about what I expect from audiophools... you couldn't make it up
Mike Reed
pfm Member
I know I'm a pedant, but does anyone call their cars lorries? They're both motor vehicles and convey people and goods. SPURS and RADIALS are both cable circuits conveying electricity but, just like the above analogy, function in different ways; quite clearly distinguishable ways. Why on Earth are they so often confused, especially by people who purport to be sufficiently interested in threads on the subject to post their own comment using the wrong terminology ?
SIMPLES ! A SPUR is a circuit connected to an existing one.
A RADIAL is its own circuit directly connected to the (domestic) electrical source; i.e. the consumer unit.
Read, mark, learn and inwardly digest.
There is no question in my mind that some s/s kit (namely Naim, but probably a lot of others with toroidal trannies) benefits sonically in a clear way. Maybe not in all circumstances, geographical locations or methodology of supply delivery, but the potential improvements in clarity and dynamics has been experienced by just too many people to be a figment of the imagination. Even partial dedicated hifi radial installations involving sockets, plugs and fuses etc. have often as not justified the relatively small outlay involved
I have absolutely no idea whether my current valved system benefits from my decade + old 8 radial mains but the simple fact that it's as far away from domestic rings as is normally feasible, AND can be simply switched in and out separately at the c.u. and any fault can relate to only one piece of kit is a comforting thought. It's there, doesn't eat anything and avoids lots of 'orrible connections as would otherwise be involved.
SIMPLES ! A SPUR is a circuit connected to an existing one.
A RADIAL is its own circuit directly connected to the (domestic) electrical source; i.e. the consumer unit.
Read, mark, learn and inwardly digest.
There is no question in my mind that some s/s kit (namely Naim, but probably a lot of others with toroidal trannies) benefits sonically in a clear way. Maybe not in all circumstances, geographical locations or methodology of supply delivery, but the potential improvements in clarity and dynamics has been experienced by just too many people to be a figment of the imagination. Even partial dedicated hifi radial installations involving sockets, plugs and fuses etc. have often as not justified the relatively small outlay involved
I have absolutely no idea whether my current valved system benefits from my decade + old 8 radial mains but the simple fact that it's as far away from domestic rings as is normally feasible, AND can be simply switched in and out separately at the c.u. and any fault can relate to only one piece of kit is a comforting thought. It's there, doesn't eat anything and avoids lots of 'orrible connections as would otherwise be involved.
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That may be the case where you live and the mains certainly had no effect on my previous location but as far as my existing location is concerned the number of people who have experienced the very noticeable difference runs in direct opposition to your view, laws of physics or not.You may be an experienced Amp designer but that does not mean that your hearing is not infallible.
I went from a situation were my system was dreadful, to sublime sound ,after putting in a dedicated radial and regenerator. I am able to undo all the changes made to my system and
I am totally satisfied with my system which is the only thing that matters. What have you tried in your own location to decry the views of others, Have you experienced any really bad supplies...because they certainly exist.
None of the changes that I have made are to alter or improve the components but simply to provide the best supply from woeful circumstances.
It is of course a fourth bridge subject!
I can definitely detect a change in sound quality after round 11pm on my system. Firstly it plays slightly louder and the resolution seems to improve. I think this is due to the mains voltage slightly increasing due to decrease in load. I am trying to replicate this effect for other times of the day (simply turning up the volume does not lead to increased resolution) , Has anyone tried the IFI AC ipurifier or similar devices and found a good outcome?
Best thing to do is get a qualified electrician to ensure you are up to the latest specification of IET wiring regulations (I'm assuming a UK installation) this way you are less likely to die from poor wiring / inadequate fusing / improper earthing / lack of RCD protection. I have no evidence but I suspect hifi sounds better when alive than dead. If while the spark is ensuing your wiring is up to spec you would like them to put in a circuit just for your hifi, and it makes you feel better, feel free. Fully expect them to be astonished that you want a radial and not a ring circuit, horrified at the suggestion of 6mm sq and point blank confused as to why you would want 10mm sq. I have installed separate mains for my hifi, but then I was qualified as a spark at that point, so I could do it myself at little cost, it doesn't hurt, I'm reasonably sure it doesn't do anything for sound quality, but it is reassuring to know that the circuit is proably freer from noise from other kit allowing my OCD hifi mind to settle more and allow me to enjoy the music.
Andrew C!
Been around a while....
Back in the day, I fitted four radials for friends. Before powering up, we got an electrician in to certify the work, which was so certified on each occasion.
All four kidded themselves it was worth it, too. (Andy c attempting irony/humour/sarcasm - please select)
All four were for Naim rigs.
All four kidded themselves it was worth it, too. (Andy c attempting irony/humour/sarcasm - please select)
All four were for Naim rigs.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
There's only one Forth bridge, Tony (at least at the mo'; maybe not !)
Hope you're keeping well and still enjoying your T.W. & Titan i
Mike Reed
pfm Member
I have installed separate mains for my hifi, but then I'm reasonably sure it doesn't do anything for sound quality, but it is reassuring to know that the circuit is probably freer from noise from other kit allowing my OCD hifi mind to settle more and allow me to enjoy the music.
Cynic! I assume you are also reasonably UNSURE about improvements to s.q. However, taking the juice away from the domestic ring can't actually be a negative move, so it's either neutral or a benefit. Of course, pie in the sky if you're not a house/flat owner, unfortunately.
Yes I am a cynic, a general statement and not specifically this subject.
Equally I am only sitting on the fence because there are some real reasons as to why it may make a difference for others though it hasn't been anything significant for me. Different houses will be subject to more or less mains bourne interference of different types. A separate circuit may reduce the noise on that circuit. While some will point out the PSRR on an amp makes all that irrelevant, it ain't quite so IMHO: if noise on the mains is coupled into signal (through e.g. a rats nest of wiring on the back of a rack, unscreened cables, etc) then PSRR don't mean a thing. That noise is now a signal, yes probably out of the audio band, but has the potential to be in band or become in band through non-linearities. So there is a possible improvement for some - pariticularly I might suggest on those that insist on using unscreened interconnects, and are some I know that swear by unscreened interconnects, all other interconnects "sitting on the sound" or similar.
I would agree it can't hurt, if correctly installed as per local regulations. Might bring an improvement for some. Some of that improvement may be genuine measurable noise floor improvements, some might be genuinely experienced but not measurable: for me the comfort of knowing I had not missed a trick is enough to assist my enjoyment of music. You could say that is a problem for me and my brain, but I don't think I am alone in that.
Yes it is only something the fortunate can enjoy, though in the context of some systems employing a spark to get your house up to spec and add a hifi circuit is peanuts ... and it isn't snake oil, it is real copper and gainful employment you can measure. Can you ABX the difference? Not with my ears I suspect!
MVV
pfm Member
I'm not technical enough to know what my spark did and it was ages ago. But as the fat **** wouldn't crawl in the void beneath the floor i did. So all I know is it is a single strand of thick wire going from the consumer unit to 4 high quality plugs then an earth wire going back to some stake arrangement in the garden. In my Linn Naim days I was told to water it. Which I am ashamed to say I actually did.
I'm better now.
I'm better now.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Yes, it is relative peanuts, but only relative to a fairly high (=expensive) level system, I feel, for most people who are not acquainted with electrical requirements, which change from time to time anyway. Also, the feasibility of a dedicated supply is very important. If you're fairly close to your incoming and with an easy route, then fine. If you have to go up, through and down etc (like me !), involving 10 + metre runs, it's not such a doddle (or cheap unless you do the donkey work yourself).
Additionally, an extra earth , again if feasible, can lower the impedance floor. Okay if you've a TT earth; definitely not for the PME(?) earths found in more modern dwellings. Regenerators seem to be largely successful, if expensive (and with other caveats?), but this is more a way of dealing with fluctuating voltages, it seems, so not really an alternative to a separate hifi mains supply as such.
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Mike Reed
pfm Member
After being watered ?
Yes, this may have been a 2.5 or 4 mm t & e coming off your existing domestic c.u. to four SOCKETS ( wired up to plugs wouldn't help ) The separate earth wire to an earthing spike in the garden is interesting, but would, I'd imagine, be in conjunction with the house earth (which I'd think is a TT one if fitted by your sparks).