DIY Loudspeakers ?

[yuckyamson]

^ those scanspeaks are $800 cdn. ea. YOUCH! The volt 3" is the same price or a bit less.

If we aren't tied to 3" atc/volt soft domes but are willing to explore other standard midrange drivers....what else might work that would fit the 'bill' (in both senses)??

 

[James]

They are reassuringly expensive, that's for sure.

Unfortunately, we get what we pay for. Mostly.

The other option is Audio Technology C-Quenze 15 H 52 06 13 SD. Close enough to 90dB sensitivity, and good for 200Hz to 5kHz. But I'm afraid to ask the price. Seems like Solen is the Canadian distributor for AT.

 

[h.g.]

My design philosophy has always been to allow for a generous overlap at the crossover frequency between drivers. Finding a reasonably priced, high-ish sensitivity (>90dB/w/m) mid-range that also offers a flat response between 250Hz and 5kHz is more difficult than I anticipated. The biggest barrier, I suspect, will be price. Such a tribute to the Yamaha NS-1000M will not be a frugal exercise.

I am not too sure quite what you are looking for given you are considering a wide band driver and the D7608 neither of which would appear to be suitable as the midrange in a traditional monitor like the NS1000.

10 years or so ago I was looking for a 3" midrange for a sealed compact monitor with a woofer to the side of a tweeter above a midrange. Top of the list was the Tangband 75-1558SE (8 ohm, 90 dB 1W/1m, 200 W max, 260 Hz Fs, 260-8k Hz usable response, very low distortion, £150(ish)). Very nice spec and measurements but it was impossible to find in Europe. Ringing up the European Tangband distributor in Germany he said he had tested the driver but it suffered from significant rocking modes and so he expected there to be little-to-no demand for it and was not importing it. He offered to sell me a pair he had out the back for half list price. Issues with rocking modes was why this type of driver had stopped being popular many years ago. They are brought under control by using a double suspension arrangement like the ATC and Volt drivers but this is complicated and prevents it from being designed and manufactured like a big tweeter. Tang Band were helpful and offered to supply direct but the importer's judgement proved correct and the small demand in the US, presumably from DIYers looking at the spec and the measurements on Zaph's site, dried up.

The ATC and Volt were ridiculously priced and physically large causing issues for a compact monitor. Neumann/K&H were about to bring out a modern compact 3" soft dome driver with a neo magnet due to ATC ceasing to supply them. Rather than trying to squeeze in a 4" cone driver I opted to put the project on hold and wait which is where the project has remained ever since! As can be seen by the SPL and distortion plots on the Neumann site it looks to be roughly on par with the ATC in terms of performance (e.g. compare Neumann KH 420 with the earlier K&H O 500 C). I don't know the detailed design and spec of the driver which may be 4 ohm rather than 8 ohm and may have a smooth rather than a flat frequency response (neither of which is an issue for an active DSP crossover design). I also don't know the price and availability of the replacement part but doubt it will be near the price of the Volt. This is the driver I would look to obtain if the project reaches the top of the to-do list and it may also be suitable for your project.

 

[James]

I am not too sure quite what you are looking for given you are considering a wide band driver and the D7608 neither of which would appear to be suitable as the midrange in a traditional monitor like the NS1000.

You might have misunderstood me. One of my design principles is to achieve the desired transfer function with the simplest filters. That generally requires at least one octave of usable FR one octave beyond the stop band. For the NS1000M, which has crossovers around 500Hz and 5kHz, the ideal mid would be good for 250Hz - 10kHz. Naturally, for a tribute project, it will have a passive crossover network.

It was yuckyamson who suggested the D7608. I don't think it is suitable.

I'll keep an eye out for new developments on 3" domes. I think that is what I'll have to use if staying true to the NS1000M design.

 

[Steve 57]

I too like simple crossovers, but I also like simple low powered amps too.
I owned ns1000's in the 90s and my son still has a pair, good speakers in many respects, but my own take to beat them would be a wide range 12 or 15" and a tpl 150 without a wave guide.
The fane 12" or 15" tc is a wide range bass driver that does well in a sealed cab, both drivers are 99 db efficient, but it takes about a year of use (running in) to loose its course edge in the treble, but crossing it over between 2-4 khz would sort it from new.

 

[russel]

SEAS?, I have a pair in my acoustic Odins and they sound nice, I have a spare pair of millenniums you could borrow to try but shipping backwards and forwards to NZ is most likely a lot.



http://www.seas.no/index.php?option...&id=367:e0011-06-t25cf002&catid=50&Itemid=360

 

[James]

SEAS?, I have a pair in my acoustic Odins and they sound nice, I have a spare pair of millenniums you could borrow to try but shipping backwards and forwards to NZ is most likely a lot.

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option...&id=367:e0011-06-t25cf002&catid=50&Itemid=360

Tweeters are the easiest of the three drivers to find that will be up to the job. The problem is finding a high quality midrange. The Seas M15CH001, of which I have a pair in one of my earlier designs, is long out of production.

 

[davidjt]

I've enthused about DIY LX-minis before I know, but currently listening to one of my yardstick albums I'm moved to mention them one more time.

When I first bought Eric Clapton's 461 Ocean Boulevard I thought it was OK, but not exactly great. As I've slowly upgraded the system the two keyboards have gone from being a subdued background, occasionally unremarked, to the foundation of practically every track. The enhanced separation of instruments I am getting from these speakers brings yet more life to what is now a firm favorite.

 

[Brian]

I agree. I was absolutely chuffed to bits when I built my first pair of speakers, until my girlfriend said they sounded worse than a cheap, 80s Matsui system - My heart dropped. Brian from pfm also heard them a couple of times, and was always polite, but they were utter s**t compared to his. It's only when I took them to Scalford that they were starting to sound OK (still rough in the midrange though).

As for golf, my long game was OK'ish, but my short game was terrible. I only went to keep my mate happy - so for me, no, I didn't enjoy being bad at golf.

You’re being unfair to yourself, Matt. Your speakers weren’t s**t, it takes a lot to better the kit design I’m using, that’s all. I do like your speakers.

Maybe I should be brave enough to cart mine to Scalford one day, if/when it’s on again to see what others think.

As I’m unhappy with the painted finish of mine I’ve tried all kinds to see if I can equal the sound but with better cosmetics, nothing has managed it. Among diy/kit designs I’ve tried are WD25a, IPL S5, Edingdales and a BiB design. I’ve had the Ergo IX here and it is very good but as a small speaker I’m not comparing it with the same use in mind. Mass produced speakers I tried include SBL’s and Keilidh’s. I have some 40 year old JBLs I’ll never refurbish but they get close, very close, you could drop over for a listen sometime around corona issues.

The only speakers I’ve heard I think might win out are ATC 50’s, but that was at another member’s house and also active.

PS: By the way, Some will think you’ve gone off your rocker, using my name and ‘always polite’ in the same sentence.

 

[Brian]

Owned kit speakers for 25 years KLS9 and now Klang un Ton Nexus.

That looks like a very interesting speaker. No prices on the website though and that tends to put me off a bit.

 

[Fatmarley]

You’re being unfair to yourself, Matt. Your speakers weren’t s**t, it takes a lot to better the kit design I’m using, that’s all. I do like your speakers.

See, you've done it again (being polite). I can honestly say I felt embarrassed at how bad mine were compared to yours, and it was all down to very bad crossover design.

Maybe I should be brave enough to cart mine to Scalford one day, if/when it’s on again to see what others think.

You should. Although it's not held in Scalford anymore.

I have some 40 year old JBLs I’ll never refurbish but they get close, very close, you could drop over for a listen sometime around corona issues.

I'm always interested in hearing JBLs. I heard some small ones at Scalford one year and thought they were great.

PS: By the way, Some will think you’ve gone off your rocker, using my name and ‘always polite’ in the same sentence.

Sometimes you're an ignorant bast**d. It has taken you three months to reply to my post.

 

[Brian]

See, you've done it again (being polite). I can honestly say I felt embarrassed at how bad mine were compared to yours, and it was all down to very bad crossover design.


You should. Although it's not held in Scalford anymore.


I'm always interested in hearing JBLs. I heard some small ones at Scalford one year and thought they were great.




Sometimes you're an ignorant bast**d. It has taken you three months to reply to my post.

I should have gone to specsavers.

Mine are JBL L110’s. There isn’t a great deal about them on the web, 3-way speakers, heavy things.

The drivers are grubby but work, the cabinets are also tatty , one of them could do with a new rear panel but the sound quality is pretty good, imo.

Sent you a PM, Matt.

 

[FireMoon]

That looks like a very interesting speaker. No prices on the website though and that tends to put me off a bit.

https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/nexus_kut_en.htm they're around 700 quid a piece and there's a company in Germany make the cabs as kits. https://www.ebelholztechnik.de/shop...sebausatz-MPX-Paar-ohne-Lautsprecher::73.html

 

[Brian]

Thanks for the links.

 

[JimmyB]

Yes, I think there's a few on there well worth building

https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/todo_en.htm

 

[Fatmarley]

Yes, I think there's a few on there well worth building

https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/todo_en.htm

You really can't fault the drivers, but the crossover is far, far more important - and incredibly difficult to get right (especially so when passive). It might be me but I can't see any measurements of this speaker.
You only have to Google Stereophile measurements to see that a lot of well respected manufacturers can't achieve a flat frequency response. Yes, a flat frequency response doesn't guarantee a perfect speaker, but a wonky one is knackered from the start, and will sound how it measures (wonky).

 

[James]

Having designed ten bespoke loudspeakers, I can say it is relatively easy to achieve a flat FR on any given design axis. What is harder is making a multi-way system sound cohesive. It's all to do with relative phase, and if I had to choose between perfectly flat FR and perfect relative phase alignment, it'd always be the latter. That was my eureka moment about 5 designs in ...

 

[Fatmarley]

Having designed ten bespoke loudspeakers, I can say it is relatively easy to achieve a flat FR on any given design axis. What is harder is making a multi-way system sound cohesive. It's all to do with relative phase, and if I had to choose between perfectly flat FR and perfect relative phase alignment, it'd always be the latter. That was my eureka moment about 5 designs in ...

Yep, my first speakers had a lovely flat measured response, but I couldn't for the life of me work out why they sounded flat and boring - But, if they have a wonky frequency response, it doesn't matter how good the phase is, they will have a wonky response, and will sound how they measure.

 

[fred sonnen]

Maybe you can do something with the following food for thought.
If you surf the net and the demand for quality and presentation (in the sense of audio) is high, you will often end up with "AudioTechnology" for bass and ScanSpeak / Berillium for tweeters:
Jenzen ATS
AudioTechnology 3-Way Classic
The other way focuses on the midrange drivers: ATC SM75-150. You won't find (!) serious criticism of this chassis on the net. But as OEM it is no longer available. Remain as a way out: Volt. The ATC basses are also considered good. But also here no OEM -> Volt.
A.O.S. (sorry the text is german only) has gone this way in the last 10 years. The monitor series from the supplier are extraordinary.
MONITOR M80
CONTROL MONITOR CM38
Have fun ;-)https://www.aos-lautsprecher.de/index.php/lautsprecherkits/monitor/cm38/

 

[RJohan]

They are reassuringly expensive, that's for sure.

Unfortunately, we get what we pay for. Mostly.

The other option is Audio Technology C-Quenze 15 H 52 06 13 SD. Close enough to 90dB sensitivity, and good for 200Hz to 5kHz. But I'm afraid to ask the price. Seems like Solen is the Canadian distributor for AT.

I mailed Skaaning a year or so ago when I was thinking of building one of gravelsens designs. 18 H 52 06 13 SDKA was EUR 236:- direct. Far from solens heavy mark up!