DIY Loudspeakers ?

[Adam N]

The variable that many people forget about is the room.

Also seldom mentioned is hearing - I can bet you a dollar to a dime there are quite a few pro reviewers and pro designers out there with less than stellar hearing but that's hardly ever considered in the equation when evaluating or building.

 

[Gervais Cote]

Also seldom mentioned is hearing - I can bet you a dollar to a dime there are quite a few pro reviewers and pro designers out there with less than stellar hearing but that's hardly ever considered in the equation when evaluating or building.

According to what I heard at my last visit in an audio show, I would say that less than 20% of people as a decent hearing !

 

[Adam N]

According to what I heard at my last visit in an audio show, I would say that less than 20% of people as a decent hearing !

 

[h.g.]

According to what I heard at my last visit in an audio show, I would say that less than 20% of people as a decent hearing !

For those that haven't gone I would strongly recommend attending an audio show and then comparing what you heard with what others heard when discussed on forums like this. Obviously most of those attending won't have the hearing of youngsters, I certainly don't, but I rather doubt the variations in what people consider good or poor has much to do with how well their ears may or may not be working and more to do with what they look for in speakers.

What people look for in DIY speakers varies greatly. Some want to save money which is possible if they compare against high priced low volume audiophile speakers but much less so if compared against the better lower cost high volume examples. The high cost of DIY parts means value-for-money is more likely to be found with large complex speakers rather than small 2 ways. Some want to grow their knowledge and experience in design and/or hand made manufacture as a hobby interest. Others want to restore or reproduce vintage hardware like Tannoys or LS3/5As. Others want...

 

[yuckyamson]

Even though this question is not directed at me, I've published my E-IX design in the PFM reference pages, and agreed with Orangeart to sell kits so more can enjoy the little loudspeaker that punches well above its weight.

James,

I'm demanding you dust off the superman tights and get back to that ergo 11 design you were pondering - - the yammy ns1000 tribute. I'm certain they will sing. If you make one I'm gonna find a way to own a pair. I'm thinking burled walnut or some mahogany or sassafras.

You gotta do it. I've heard the ix's. You owe it to the world!

Best,

Glickman

 

[James]

Tell you what, Glickman. When I find a mid that will do justice to the 13" Scan-speak and worthy of the Yamaha legacy, you'll be the first to know. But you'd better be prepared to reach deep into your pocket. The woofer alone is over USD500 each (but apparently on sale at Madisound just now for USD399 each).

 

[zippy]

My impression is that doing the electronics is relatively easy.
Building a nice, professional-looking case is way harder.

 

[James]

My impression is that doing the electronics is relatively easy.
Building a nice, professional-looking case is way harder.

My experience is the opposite. Designing a passive crossover to yield a coherent whole loudspeaker is way harder.

 

[h.g.]

My impression is that doing the electronics is relatively easy.
Building a nice, professional-looking case is way harder.

Depends on your objectives, experience and skills.

In my case my main interest is the in room technical performance of the speakers. Active crossovers are used in place of passive crossovers for technical performance, flexibility and cost reasons. Doing the electronics in this case is relatively easy but designing the filters to do precisely what is wanted can be an interesting challenge. The ability to simply reprogram when experimenting or if something isn't quite right (often!) is a major advantage. Although of no interest to me passive crossovers are of interest to many, perhaps most, involved with speaker DIY who have different objectives to myself.

A conservative professional finish for a DIY speaker is achievable with care and a modest amount of experience. To get the first one spot on would be good going but after that it becomes more likely. This is much less the case with less conservative designs which a brief browse of DIY speaker galleries will show rarely work. When I was a teenager my only attempt at a non-conservative finish turned out so badly I literally felt ill in my stomach when I looked at them. Important lesson though about the design effort and skill that goes into successful commercial non-conservative designs.

 

[yuckyamson]

Tell you what, Glickman. When I find a mid that will do justice to the 13" Scan-speak and worthy of the Yamaha legacy, you'll be the first to know. But you'd better be prepared to reach deep into your pocket. The woofer alone is over USD500 each (but apparently on sale at Madisound just now for USD399 each).

There are several new soft domes from VOLT. There is a 3" and a 2". IIRC your pre-requisite is something which could reach from 300 hz - 3000 or something like that.

Can you give 'em a looksie?

And yes, I am terrified at the idea of spending that much. But I may have to put money where mouth is.

Kindly,

Glickman

 

[Steve 57]

I've been building both amps and speakers for close on 25 years
Its probably in the last 5 years I've made speakers that play anything, it's not an easy task.
To me it's all about knowing what your goal is and how to achieve it
Along the way I've probably accumulated close to 75 or more modern and vintage drivers, some I have plans for, others that where stepping stones to where I am now. Some of you may well have heard my efforts, as I attend lots of meets ( nebo/audio talk/ wam) over the years
Cheers

 

[James]

There are several new soft domes from VOLT. There is a 3" and a 2". IIRC your pre-requisite is something which could reach from 300 hz - 3000 or something like that.

Can you give 'em a looksie?

And yes, I am terrified at the idea of spending that much. But I may have to put money where mouth is.

Kindly,

Glickman

The Volt VM752 3" dome could do at a pinch, but it's even more expensive than the Scan-speak woofer! The 2" version (VM527) might be more cost effective. It has a similar low-end reach, but goes slightly higher up (4.5kHz vs 4kHz). Both have the requisite 8-ohm sensitivity > 90dB/w/m.

It's a shame you live on the other side of the world to me. Otherwise, I'd be happy for you to commission the build and you can have the first pair, and I'd build myself a second pair if it turns out OK. As it stands now, I'd have to stump up the cash to buy the BOM and build a pair for myself, as I imagine it would be cost-prohibitive for me to send the finished pair to you.

Open to ideas from you.

 

[h.g.]

The Volt VM752 3" dome could do at a pinch, but it's even more expensive than the Scan-speak woofer! The 2" version (VM527) might be more cost effective. It has a similar low-end reach, but goes slightly higher up (4.5kHz vs 4kHz). Both have the requisite 8-ohm sensitivity > 90dB/w/m.

I am curious about the thinking behind the 2" driver having a similar low end to the 3" for use in a NS1000 type studio monitor (i.e. speakers intended to have clean output at standard listening levels in rooms). The 3" soft dome Volt can be crossed at 500 Hz or so like the NS1000 (the 3" soft dome ATC seems able to go a touch lower) but I would expect distortion levels and the driver resonant frequency to force the usable crossover frequency for the 2" higher. PMC have home speakers (but not professional) with a 2" soft dome crossed at 400 Hz albeit ones only trying to keep up with the output from 6.5" woofer/s rather than 12". They have been discussed in threads here and it is a common enough brand one could probably go have a listen to help convince oneself one way or the other about the issues.

I also suspect a well designed sealed 3 way monitor type DIY speaker with 2 x 8" or 12" woofer, 3-5" midrange and 1" tweeter might be of interest to a few. I am currently supposed to be working on an on-wall version for my living area but suspect a free standing one would be of more general interest. One feature I would value in a free standing monitor speaker that wasn't included in the NS1000 design would be the ability to rotate the tweeter/midrange so the speaker could be used horizontally or vertically.

 

[James]

I'm sure the 2" VM527 would be more compromised than its bigger sibling at the low end, despite what Volt and the FR chart might suggest. My design philosophy has always been to allow for a generous overlap at the crossover frequency between drivers. Finding a reasonably priced, high-ish sensitivity (>90dB/w/m) mid-range that also offers a flat response between 250Hz and 5kHz is more difficult than I anticipated. The biggest barrier, I suspect, will be price. Such a tribute to the Yamaha NS-1000M will not be a frugal exercise.

 

[yuckyamson]

I hear the conundrum(s). Am I wrong to fear a 2" thinking that although the specs specify that it can go low enough that in actuality there might be a hole in the realistic 'shove' of the speaker where the woofer and mid cross? I just don't want to go half-assed here, as I'm sure you don't James.

How about we talk a little more about what the design might be with what drivers (are there any other more cost effective woofers or are the scanspeaks your huckleberries? It's fine if the answer is "yes". Feel free to give some other thoughts).

Are you talking ported or sealed?

I think the key thing is what you said originally, that this is a 'tribute' to the NS1000's. What that means to me is the coherence, smoothness, detail, and 'fun' factor of a bookshelf with enough low-end extension to never feel 'without' and a great overall level of sophistication. Let me know what's cooking in your head. I want to be clear; you're the chef here. I'm just a patron.

 

[yuckyamson]

^ PS I wrote this before your last missive appeared on screen.

 

[yuckyamson]

Just out of curiosity, what about using some of the "full range" drivers out there but just....not full range? Like one of the mark-audio paper jobbies?

 

[yuckyamson]

I noticed Sanspeak has a lovely 3" D7608 in 2 variants (bezel or without) however the FS is 300 hz. I gather crossing over at 250 hz is fairly important to you to make sure the vocal range is left unfettered. Do I have that right?

 

[James]

How about we talk a little more about what the design might be with what drivers (are there any other more cost effective woofers or are the scanspeaks your huckleberries? It's fine if the answer is "yes". Feel free to give some other thoughts).

The Scan-speak 32W/8878T01 strikes the right balance of sensitivity (89dB/2.83V/m), LF extension (40Hz F3), compact enclosure (about 50L stuffed) and 8-ohm nominal impedance for easy driving, which fits the bill for the tribute project.

Are you talking ported or sealed?

Always sealed. You know ported loudspeakers are the work of the Devil.

Just out of curiosity, what about using some of the "full range" drivers out there but just....not full range? Like one of the mark-audio paper jobbies?

Those are possibilities. Had a quick look at the Markaudio Alpair-10P, which seems to fit the specification, but I'm wary of the non-linearity. There is close to 10dB of on-axis variation between 500Hz and 5kHz, which will require correction and attendant insertion losses.

The best mid choice that I know of just now (other than the 3" Volt) is the Seas M15CH001, which I use in my E-IIIR design. It's a shame they are no longer in regular production.

 

[James]

I noticed Sanspeak has a lovely 3" D7608 in 2 variants (bezel or without) however the FS is 300 hz. I gather crossing over at 250 hz is fairly important to you to make sure the vocal range is left unfettered. Do I have that right?

I won't cross at 250Hz, more like 500Hz. But the fs should be at least one octave below; ideally two octaves. The D7608 won't be easy to work with. It has a domed shaped response to match its physical appearance.