Dilemma: Klipsch Cornwall IV vs Tannoy Kensington SE

[John]

Interesting letter from the big guy.

 

[Tony L]

I’ve always found that letter from PWK really odd given just how profound the sonic difference between valve and solid state has been in my own direct experience with his speakers.

I suppose parallels can be made with John’s personal experience with all the Mana, roller-balls, third-party subchassis, rubber suspension tweaks etc vs. Ivor T’s recommendation for LP12 usage.

I’m prepared to bet the difference between Mike’s Avondale/Naim stuff and a nice valve amp will be bigger though! ;-)

 

[Mike Hanson]

I’ve always found that letter from PWK really odd given just how profound the sonic difference between valve and solid state has been in my own direct experience with his speakers.

I suppose parallels can be made with John’s personal experience with all the Mana, roller-balls, third-party subchassis, rubber suspension tweaks etc vs. Ivor T’s recommendation for LP12 usage.

I’m prepared to bet the difference between Mike’s Avondale/Naim stuff and a nice valve amp will be bigger though! ;-)

I'm in touch with a local who's bringing over a McIntosh C22 pre-amp and MC275 MK IV power-amp, so we'll see if it's a life changing experience. I've warned him that there's a good chance I won't want either, but given the proximity, he doesn't mind. I haven't arranged the time yet.

 

[Tony L]

Excellent, that should be quite a profound change! Far more expensive than I feel you need (price of a car in the UK), but it will certainly put in reality what so many of us have attempted to articulate and with tons of power to spare.

 

[Mike Hanson]

A tube preamp doesn't need to be tall, mine certainly isn't (Concert Fidelity CF080), but obviously you'd rather select a preamp on how good it sounds rather than how tall or short it is.

About a year ago I auditioned five different tube based preamps all around a budget of £5k, which I appreciate is more than you're looking to spend but these were my findings:

Second hand items were easy to source and test as I simply used a national retailer of second hifi kit who was willing to facilitate home demo. From them I got an Audio Note M5, Conrad Johnson ACT One, some strange prototype unit from Dalby with one RCA input and a McIntosh C22.

I liked the Audio Note the best; smooth, musical and with a great sound stage but lacked speed and leading edge dynamics. The CJ Act One was overly bright and analytical, lots of detail but there was no musical engagement.

The McIntosh I thought by comparisson to the others was pretty meh. Nothing specifically wrong with it, I just wasn't at all impressed or enthused by what it was doing. The Dalby was dreadful....OK it had the sweetest most lovely mid band I'd ever heard but someone had clearly forgotten to include the bass in the prototyping stage.

I also got a brand new KR Audio P135, and an ex-dem Concert Fidelity CF080 from the former UK distributor.

The KR Audio is built around the 45 output tube, which is highly revered by many. That preamp was sublime, utterly and wonderfully gorgeous. It blew away everything else I'd heard to that point despite to costing half of what the AN, McIntosh and CJ amps cost new. It is a wonder at the price point, a true gem.

It will almost certainly get you that sweet, airy rich timbred midband you're looking for and it will do that for half what it might cost you else where. But, you will likely have to buy new as it's a new product and it's unlikely to be available second hand. I would have bought that amp save for the Concert Fidelity.

Now, this amp, in the UK at least, should have retailed for around £18,000! In the US the new price is listed as $22,000. The distributor's ex-demo model was I think five or six years old, but still was sold with new output tubes. It was another league on from the KR Audio and made the units I tried sound positively remedial. It had sweetness, richness, airy and open presentation, a vast sound stage etc, all the things you want a good preamp to do. But the part that blew me away was the speed of the thing; it's a hybrid tube design but it enabled my system to play with the kind of speed and attack you would expect from an all SS amplification set up; it was, is, quite remarkable.

One other insight I learned is that a tube preamp where you can source alternative output tubes, i.e. NOS or vintage examples of the output tubes, gives you the chance to roll and upgrade or even just fine tune the sound down the line. The CF unit uses 12au7s, which are readily available and can sound quite different between different manufacturers and vintages.

Thanks for that thorough message. I've checked, and I can apparently get the KR Audio from Solen here in Canada for only CAD$5700 (£3400), although it's special order. I noticed, though, that it doesn't come with a remote. Some nights I trampoline through my music collection, and I'm constantly adjusting the volume. Getting out of my comfy chair with each bounce would be too bouncy.

Maybe I need an amp monkey.

I'll do a search for some of the others. We'll see if something shows up.

 

[Joe P]

Mike,

When I still had a Naim 250 and was trying different Tannoys at home — Berkeleys, GRFs, and a home-brew Tannoy using a newer DC driver — the GRFs came in dead last. They were so bad with a 250 that I thought the speakers were broken or that they are hugely overrated. However, fishies in the know said, "Joe, stop being a slavish devotee of flat earth amplification; try a toob* amp, you jive turkey!".

I stepped out of my comfort zone and tried an Anthem tube integrated amp. Wow, night and day on the GRFs, but still not quite where I wanted to be, so I bought a Manley Stingray sight unseen, sound unheard.

The short is that I've been running early Monitor Red-era Tannoy GRFs with a Stingray happily since 2009. I don't know the Klipsch Cornwalls at all, but if they respond to valves the way the GRFs did...

Joe


* The British fishies said valve and you prat! but the gist was the same.

 

[kernow]

Naim and Tannoy? I too enjoy sardine and beef sandwiches ...

 

[Joe P]

kernow, you handsome devil,

I had a Naim amp for ages, which worked wonderfully with my Linn Saras then Royd Sorcerers. I likely never would have changed the amp, as I was the King of Flat Earth on at least three worlds, but when we bought a house and I set up the system the little Royds were utterly lost in a big rec room. That led to looking for big speakers and it so happened that I came across some Tannoys first.

Made sense to try the Tannoys with Naim as that's exactly what I had, but the combination was terrible so I went a different route.

It's all documented in the Ancient Scrolls. It should be required reading followed by an written and oral exam before new fishies join.

Joe

 

[geetee1972]

Thanks for that thorough message. I've checked, and I can apparently get the KR Audio from Solen here in Canada for only CAD$5700 (£3400), although it's special order. I noticed, though, that it doesn't come with a remote. Some nights I trampoline through my music collection, and I'm constantly adjusting the volume. Getting out of my comfy chair with each bounce would be too bouncy.

Maybe I need an amp monkey.

I'll do a search for some of the others. We'll see if something shows up.

That might be the P130 at that price. The P135 is more expensive and does come with a remote. I've not heard the P130 so can't comment on it but I would say that that kind of investment means you need to demo something before you commit to it.

 

[sailor]

Hi Mike, interesting thread. I have seen no mention of any room treatment particularly for the modal region. So I am assuming you have none or little. What you may be experiencing is cancellation at certain frequencies. This happens in all rooms and destroys true fidelity.

I'm sure you are aware of the fact that when low frequencies bounce off the walls, floor and ceiling they will combine either in phase or anti-phase or somewhere in between causing peaks, nulls or partial nulls. If you are sitting in an area of cancellation then there will be music missing. Temporarily listen to your system while standing in any corner in the back of your room. You should hear a fuller sound. If this is the case then consider bass traps and/or multi-subs. Using both methods is strongly recommended and there is much info on the net on how to implement this.

Doing this will allow any speaker you choose to perform optimally. The unavoidably large peaks and nulls are tamed and a smoother response is heard. Low frequencies previously absent will now be heard and the result is a positive improvement across the spectrum. It is difficult to express the performance boost but in a few words, immersive, rewarding and wonderful to the point where the music itself occupies your mind and without the damaging effects of your room's acoustics you are transported to the venue. I have a Christina Pluhar CD where I hear the size and space of the hall before the music even starts.

Some may advise getting DSP to smooth the response but unfortunately will not work. Unless the cancellation issue is sorted out those nulls which can be 15 to 20 dB will remain. Any power you pump into a null will just cancel with the same power.

The advice to change some cables is solid but not at this stage, not until the room is sorted out as you may buy a 'warm' sounding cable that will sound dull when you introduce different components and will also apply to your current intention to buy a new pre amp etc.

To end off you mentioned enjoying DIY kits. I can happily recommend the Aikido. Not expensive and has numerous possible valve combinations for setting gain, has a clever and effective noise cancelling circuit and is simple to build. A PCB is available but I built mine point to point.

 

[Mike Hanson]

That might be the P130 at that price. The P135 is more expensive and does come with a remote. I've not heard the P130 so can't comment on it but I would say that that kind of investment means you need to demo something before you commit to it.

It says P135: https://solen.ca/en/products/kr-audio-p135-tube-pre-amplifier. It doesn't mention a remote, but perhaps it's there.

The problem with buying it sound unheard is that I might not like it. You were very impressed, but my mileage may vary.

I'll soon be able to hear the McIntosh options (pre and power) in my own home. If one of them immediately hits me as perfect (and I'm usually pretty good sensing that right out of the gate), then I'll go with that. If not, then it should still give me a sense of whether a tube pre-amp is likely deliver the goods, or if a tube power-amp is the preferred route.

 

[Mike Hanson]

Hi Mike, interesting thread. I have seen no mention of any room treatment particularly for the modal region. So I am assuming you have none or little. What you may be experiencing is cancellation at certain frequencies. This happens in all rooms and destroys true fidelity.

I'm sure you are aware of the fact that when low frequencies bounce off the walls, floor and ceiling they will combine either in phase or anti-phase or somewhere in between causing peaks, nulls or partial nulls. If you are sitting in an area of cancellation then there will be music missing. Temporarily listen to your system while standing in any corner in the back of your room. You should hear a fuller sound. If this is the case then consider bass traps and/or multi-subs. Using both methods is strongly recommended and there is much info on the net on how to implement this.

Doing this will allow any speaker you choose to perform optimally. The unavoidably large peaks and nulls are tamed and a smoother response is heard. Low frequencies previously absent will now be heard and the result is a positive improvement across the spectrum. It is difficult to express the performance boost but in a few words, immersive, rewarding and wonderful to the point where the music itself occupies your mind and without the damaging effects of your room's acoustics you are transported to the venue. I have a Christina Pluhar CD where I hear the size and space of the hall before the music even starts.

Some may advise getting DSP to smooth the response but unfortunately will not work. Unless the cancellation issue is sorted out those nulls which can be 15 to 20 dB will remain. Any power you pump into a null will just cancel with the same power.

The advice to change some cables is solid but not at this stage, not until the room is sorted out as you may buy a 'warm' sounding cable that will sound dull when you introduce different components and will also apply to your current intention to buy a new pre amp etc.

To end off you mentioned enjoying DIY kits. I can happily recommend the Aikido. Not expensive and has numerous possible valve combinations for setting gain, has a clever and effective noise cancelling circuit and is simple to build. A PCB is available but I built mine point to point.

Thanks for weighing in. I don't think it's a room issue. I've had many other speakers in the same position (Royd Minstrel SE and RR3, Ergo IX, Celestion SL6, Vandersteen Models 2ce Sig 2 and 3A, Tannoy Kensington SE). Only the Cornwall exhibits this problem. It's actually a lack of richness in the midrange and higher frequencies, not in the bass. (The bass is quite fulsome.)

Also, I have a GoldenEar SuperSub X that I've used to augment the really low frequencies, and if I set the crossover too high, there way too much bass.

 

[GT]

I'm in touch with a local who's bringing over a McIntosh C22 pre-amp and MC275 MK IV power-amp, so we'll see if it's a life changing experience. I've warned him that there's a good chance I won't want either, but given the proximity, he doesn't mind. I haven't arranged the time yet.

I won't be surprised if you are not blown away. McIntosh is extremely average in terms of audio performance. The power amp sections are class B, so will never give a high level of audio performance compared with Class A, or Class AB. Also, I suspect the gain will be far too high for your Cornwalls. Check the gain of the C22 preamplifier. If its more then 10dB you will have noise. Most US made preamps have 20+dB of gain, some as much as 30dB. I would be looking at one of the more basic AudioNote integrated amps with EL84s, or the Leben EL84 integrated amps. If I can think of anymore I will post back here.

 

[Mike Hanson]

I won't be surprised if you are not blown away. McIntosh is extremely average in terms of audio performance. The power amp sections are class B, so will never give a high level of audio performance compared with Class A, or Class AB. Also, I suspect the gain will be far too high for your Cornwalls. Check the gain of the C22 preamplifier. If its more then 10dB you will have noise. Most US made preamps have 20+dB of gain, some as much as 30dB. I would be looking at one of the more basic AudioNote integrated amps with EL84s, or the Leben EL84 integrated amps. If I can think of anymore I will post back here.

I'm not sure of the gain of my Benchmark HPA4. 20dB certainly sounds like a lot, though, considering my Avondale power amps are something like 27dB. Also, I was planning to build a pre-amp based on modules from Neurochrome, which uses their Universal Buffer that's set at unity gain as a default. Perhaps the Benchmark is also unity gain.

 

[GT]

I'm not sure of the gain of my Benchmark HPA4. 20dB certainly sounds like a lot, though, considering my Avondale power amps are something like 27dB. Also, I was planning to build a pre-amp based on modules from Neurochrome, which uses their Universal Buffer that's set at unity gain as a default. Perhaps the Benchmark is also unity gain.

I wouldn't use that buffer stage as you are back to solid state again. There are a number of tube buffer stages using a single double triode which will give you a far better result. No problem using their passive control although I would use a good quality 47/48 position mechanical stepped attenuator.

 

[Juancho]

I won't be surprised if you are not blown away. McIntosh is extremely average in terms of audio performance. The power amp sections are class B, so will never give a high level of audio performance compared with Class A, or Class AB. Also, I suspect the gain will be far too high for your Cornwalls. Check the gain of the C22 preamplifier. If its more then 10dB you will have noise. Most US made preamps have 20+dB of gain, some as much as 30dB. I would be looking at one of the more basic AudioNote integrated amps with EL84s, or the Leben EL84 integrated amps. If I can think of anymore I will post back here.

I agree with the McIntosh being extremely average in terms of audio performance and tried it with my Canterburys but not with the Cornawalls. With noise it depends more on quality of the equipment as much as absolute gain. My own build preamp at 12db gain paired with my Mastersound 845s produces no audible noise at the listening position and only a very low hum from the power amps with my ear glued to the speakers

 

[Mike Hanson]

I wouldn't use that buffer stage as you are back to solid state again. There are a number of tube buffer stages using a single double triode which will give you a far better result. No problem using their passive control although I would use a good quality 47/48 position mechanical stepped attenuator.

That planned Neurochrome pre-amp build is a side project, and not a response to this current quest. The purpose of the Universal Buffer is not to provide gain, but rather to "buffer" things with suitable impedance matching on both ends. I was originally planning to use that module to convert from a single-ended input to a balanced output, but that need evaporated. Since I already had the module, I decided to repurpose it as a simple pre-amp build, but that hasn't yet transpired.

Yes, I have too many irons in the fire.

 

[cupples]

Another vote for EL84 push pull for large high efficiency speakers. I've been really impressed with my tiny Luxman SQ-N100 driving my Altec Granada's, an improvement over a rather nice 300b power amp with with quality transformers.

 

[Mike Hanson]

FYI, I was finally able to chat with the local fellow with the McIntosh gear on the phone. He strongly suspects that I won't buy either unit, so commented that it wasn't worth his time. I told him that was OK, and to have a great day. Then he did an about face and said he would come on Friday, just to give me a taste of it. It's not clear to me whether he's bringing both pre and power, or only the C22. We'll see on Friday.

Based upon all of the feedback I've gotten here, and the reviews that I've read, I suspect that the McIntosh gear won't pass muster, but I'll keep an open mind.

 

[Tony L]

Based upon all of the feedback I've gotten here, and the reviews that I've read, I suspect that the McIntosh gear won't pass muster, but I'll keep an open mind.

My bet is into the Klipsch it will comfortably beat your existing solid state kit, but wouldn’t represent a good way to go as a second-hand Leben 300, Audio Note or whatever integrated would likely be better again for $1500-2k. You really don’t need high power here. If you were in the UK I’d be recommending a well-restored Leak Stereo 20 or TL12+. A great sounding 10 Watts is all you need with Klipsch.