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Digital v Vinyl.

maxflinn said:
Blzebub, thanks for the offer, I've no doubt your system sounds fantastic, whether playing vinyl or digital.

What I'm trying to tease out is discussion of other reasons, bar sound quality, why vinyl fans love it so much.

Let me put it this way, if a new format was invented tomorrow that was purported to sound better than anything currently available, would you ditch your TT and use it in preference, assuming you agreed that it sounded best?
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well the bit in bold isn't true. Reread your opening post.

You've formed the opinion that it can't be SQ (based on no experience of one half of the equation), which is quite different from what you're now saying.
 
Fox said:
Oh my, hahaha oh dear.

(Pauses for composure)

Classical recordings can be some of the most cut and pasted musics of all
I sat listening to budget Naxos CDs the very early ones and listened to the clicks and splices, takes would be bolted to each other mid take and transitions and splices were not smoothed over in those days.

Today recordings are a lot more hairshirt mainly due to costs and orchestral familiarity with the same scores repeated every decade or so, per orchestra, also the classical cd market is not derived of hifi buffs but people who go to more concerts a week than the average rock concert goer so the live experience is now what they want, but to think recording orchestral music has higher standards is a bit of puff, its nice PR though...

Traffic noise is very prevalent on recordings at say st Martin in the fields or city/church recordings.
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Of course there are plenty of messed up classical recordings, but the point at issue wasn't recording, it was mastering.

The suggestion was that classical CDs don't get brick-walled at the CD mastering stage, and the (admittedly very few) classical CDs on the DR Database confirm this.
 
maxflinn said:
Joe, I obviously don't, and I don't see anything wrong in people having an emotional attachment to vinyl for whatever reasons.

It just strikes me that psychology plays a huge part in HiFi, and this is what I've attempted, rather hamfistedely (new word) to look at in this thread - the reasons other than sound quality why people may love vinyl.
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... but the problem is that you're starting from a biased point of view, not a neutral one - you're not asking for reasons why people prefer vinyl, you're starting from the premise that the reasons for such preferences aren't related to the sound of the stuff, and your OP leads with three such suggested reasons.
 
maxflinn said:
I think this post from Fox is relevant.

Vinyl is more than media, some folk never seem to acknowledge this: vinyl is an artefactual entity, it is a work of art to be experienced and curated, art is fleeting, delicate and tangible, it is precious and limited and it takes looking after, something I failed to do... Vinyl is the manifest embodiment of a thought and an idea made sound made real. Art is neither subservient nor does it have to answer to reason or science or examination or even criticism or scrutiny. Art is an expression, vinyl records are an expression, media is an expression. Expression is part of living and living sometimes is intolerable without art. Sometimes the music alone is not enough for a person and it needs the physicality of the medium to manifest itself fully. Like a litho vs a high res digital screen, one is reflected light, the other is radiated light, the difference between digital and analogue can be for some that important.
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You presumably deliberately missed out my words before which say: "an opinion..." we all have opinions my opinions are my own and may or may not align with anyone else's but they are not to be used as some rag doll in a tug of war between people where there need not be any. I think you are somehow looking to generate reaction rather than discussion which does not operate well when it is polarized opinion.

You really need to seriously up your game and put some effort into your own critical thinking and writing rather than selectively using something I write as some sort of rather crudely-worded tool in whatever this crusade of yours is. Please.
 
Fox said:
You presumably deliberately missed out my words before which say: "an opinion..." we all have opinions my opinions are my own and may or may not align with anyone else's but they are not to be used as some rag doll in a tug of war between people where there need not be any. I think you are somehow looking to generate reaction rather than discussion which does not operate well when it is polarized opinion.

You really need to seriously up your game and put some effort into your own critical thinking and writing rather than selectively using something I write as some sort of rather crudely-worded tool in whatever this crusade of yours is. Please.
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I honestly did not mean to delete the opinion bit for those reasons. It just tidied up the quote.

I've already apologised for my provocative OP, I was half drunk.

There's no crusade. This thread, on this forum was a bad idea. I should have known better.

EDIT. I seen a similar thread on another forum and decided to start my own on the AVI forum, then without giving it much thought I copied and pasted over here.

I wouldn't have done so sober :).
 
Max,

Can I offer some constructive criticism?

Instead of spending hours online, armchair hypothesizing about reasons why some people prefer turntables to CD players or the various computer + DAC options available, why don't you visit a high-end hi-fi shop to hear a top table -- or take someone, like Bubaloo, up on his offer to play you a top turntable.

If you're not willing to spend a bit of time doing either, ask yourself why it's been such an important topic to discuss online.

Joe
 
I heard many vinyl based systems at Scalford. All were interesting and some were very good indeed.

I also heard systems based around CD players and digital files. Most of those sounded great too.

On that evidence, I'm afraid I just don't get the view that analogue is superior to digital. Sound quality seems comparable in a well set up system with sympathetically matched components. So for me it boils down to the range of music available and ease of use, and CD/digital wins hands down in those areas.

I used to have a turntable but I got rid of it ten years ago and never looked back.
 
Joe P said:
...ask yourself why it's been such an important topic to discuss online.

Joe
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Because Max is Polizei - it is his duty to uphold the law as he sees it, to undo great wrongs, to champion his version of correct and, well, be I bit of a repetitive ass all said and done :)
 
Joe P said:
Max,

Can I offer some constructive criticism?

Instead of spending hours online, armchair hypothesizing about reasons why some people prefer turntables to CD players or the various computer + DAC options available, why don't you visit a high-end hi-fi shop to hear a top table -- or take someone, like Bubaloo, up on his offer to play you a top turntable.

If you're not willing to spend a bit of time doing either, ask yourself why it's been such an important topic to discuss online.

Joe
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Joe, unless I heard vinyl in my system then I don't see what insight I could gain. Unless I found somewhere to demo that would switch in Digital too, however there's no such place near me and though I'm often in Dublin I wouldn't waste anybody's time demoing when I've no intention of buying. I've heard some needle drops as I said and they sounded fine, Dave Brubeck's Take 5 was very similar to the version on Spotify, though I've no way of telling whether they came from the same master.

This topic is not important to me at all. As I said I was half drunk, seen a similar thread on WHF which got me thinking and started one of my own on the AVI forum so I could voice my opinions/thoughts on the subject. My mistake was posting it here, especially as it must seem provocative here, whereas it doesn't 'elsewhere' where it was designed for.

I apologise once again. I realise there's many real nice people that are vinyl lovers here and it wasn't my intention to insult any of them, or to create trouble. I'm genuinely interested in the psychology of why people like certain things, not just HiFi, and this is where this thread came from.
 
maxflinn said:
Joe, unless I heard vinyl in my system then I don't see what insight I could gain. Unless I found somewhere to demo that would switch in Digital too, however there's no such place near me and though I'm often in Dublin I wouldn't waste anybody's time demoing when I've no intention of buying. I've heard some needle drops as I said and they sounded fine, Dave Brubeck's Take 5 was very similar to the version on Spotify, though I've no way of telling whether they came from the same master.

This topic is not important to me at all. As I said I was half drunk, seen a similar thread on WHF which got me thinking and started one of my own on the AVI forum so I could voice my opinions/thoughts on the subject. My mistake was posting it here, especially as it must seem provocative here, whereas it doesn't 'elsewhere' where it was designed for.

I apologise once again. I realise there's many real nice people that are vinyl lovers here and it wasn't my intention to insult any of them, or to create trouble. I'm genuinely interested in the psychology of why people like certain things, not just HiFi, and this is where this thread came from.
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I could do that for you but....... I am on the SE coast of England. If you are ever over this way you can hear for yourself a top 'high-end' vinyl player vs a 'high-end' DAC. Its absolutely amazing how good vinyl can actually sound. However I also have a few 'dual' sets with the vinyl and CD produced from the same master. You couldn't put a fag tissue paper between them but the vinyl player costs 4 times as much to achieve what my DAC does.

Cheers,

DV
 
maxflinn said:
I apologise once again. I realise there's many real nice people that are vinyl lovers here and it wasn't my intention to insult any of them, or to create trouble. I'm genuinely interested in the psychology of why people like certain things, not just HiFi, and this is where this thread came from.
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It's not an insult if you state you've never heard a decent turntable. It's just a waste of time.
 
darrenyeats said:
Listening to the debut Foo Fighters album on Spotify there are definitely problems, and certainly it's been dynamically compressed. I wouldn't say the SQ makes it unlistenable, though, if you like the music itself. What is your system Phil?

The difference going from this to say Midlake's album Courage of Others, also on Spotify, is stark, it's a completely different balance! Yes I agree, I don't think you can really compare the degradation of 320 Spotify to mastering issues. 320 degradation is extremely subtle IMO and Spotify is capable of sounding great.
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Spotify sometimes throws a curve ball with its mixes . It's very hit and miss. Bit annoying that I bought the Talking Heads cd and found the Spotify version better. Time consuming as well trying to google which is the better master for every cd you buy. You win some and lose some , a long as I don't pay full price for CDs I don't mind that much.... Subtle yes but why spend money and time on your system and then put something in the chain that brings the quality down.

All my music is in flac played via JRMC on a NetTop. Async USB into my Fusioned MDAC direct into Quad 521f power amp. Speakers are B&W signature NT inwalls.
Planning on an upgrade for the amp, as in its basic state there are some flaws, although it's nice and easy to listen to compared to previous Audiolab 8200mb's
 
Max,

I apologise once again. I realise there's many real nice people that are vinyl lovers here and it wasn't my intention to insult any of them, or to create trouble. I'm genuinely interested in the psychology of why people like certain things, not just HiFi, and this is where this thread came from.
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The shit's cool, bro'.

Just saying that you can easily hear for yourself what vinyl's about. Maybe you will be bit by the vinyl bug — or much more likely you won't — but it's trivially easy to hear a decent table to at least satisfy your curiosity. I can't imagine anyone who's interested in audio not wanting to at least hear a table.

I didn't understand the fascination behind automatic watches for the longest time. Now I do because I had bothered to look into these mechanical watches more deeply than internet chat could take me.

I can tell you this and I'm sure it also rings true for many here: If I didn't like the sound I get with a decent table and good vinyl I sure as hell wouldn't have spent as much as I have on an analogue front end and piles of records. I understand the technical arguments in digital's favour and those against analogue, but none of them has any bearing on my enjoyment.

Joe
 
Is this the coolest thing? Evah.

orig.jpg


But comparing a work of art like that with a digital quartz watch is not the same as vinyl vs digital audio. Vinyl outpoints digital on realism, whatever that is. It just sounds more right.
 
maxflinn said:
Joe, unless I heard vinyl in my system then I don't see what insight I could gain. Unless I found somewhere to demo that would switch in Digital too, however there's no such place near me and though I'm often in Dublin I wouldn't waste anybody's time demoing when I've no intention of buying. I've heard some needle drops as I said and they sounded fine, Dave Brubeck's Take 5 was very similar to the version on Spotify, though I've no way of telling whether they came from the same master.

This topic is not important to me at all. As I said I was half drunk, seen a similar thread on WHF which got me thinking and started one of my own on the AVI forum so I could voice my opinions/thoughts on the subject. My mistake was posting it here, especially as it must seem provocative here, whereas it doesn't 'elsewhere' where it was designed for.

I apologise once again. I realise there's many real nice people that are vinyl lovers here and it wasn't my intention to insult any of them, or to create trouble. I'm genuinely interested in the psychology of why people like certain things, not just HiFi, and this is where this thread came from.
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Max,
If your post was out of character people would probably have picked up something amiss (drink) but it was very much in character, I'm sorry to say.

Just referring to the highlighted text in your above post - you have been invited many times to Dublin to listen to differences that you claim are impossible. Now I read that you are often in Dublin. Hmmmm, perfect opportunity to study your stated interest in "why people like certain things"
 
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