Digital v Vinyl.
- Thread starter maxflinn
- Start date
darrenyeats
pfm Member
Max, yes except it's impossible to commit some kinds of mastering mistakes with vinyl due to the physical limitations. So vinyl's limitations act as a brake on stupidity - you could consider this a kind of benefit.
Also, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because vinyl is seen as an audiophile format, guess what the vinyl mastering engineers focus on (it's not radio play). Frustrating but I believe it happens a lot. Bear in mind digital mastering engineers and vinyl mastering engineers are usually different people, different mastering houses maybe, there's nothing to say they'll even talk to each other or share values.
It's ugly behind those curtains ...
Also, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because vinyl is seen as an audiophile format, guess what the vinyl mastering engineers focus on (it's not radio play). Frustrating but I believe it happens a lot. Bear in mind digital mastering engineers and vinyl mastering engineers are usually different people, different mastering houses maybe, there's nothing to say they'll even talk to each other or share values.
It's ugly behind those curtains ...
maxflinn
pfm Member
..
maxflinn
pfm Member
Good point.
maxflinn
pfm Member
Darren, that makes sense. I've read that classical music isn't butchered like much pop when put on CD's too, because of the target market's expectations.
mattgbell
Help the elderly and unwell!
Whilst I'd fully accept this, at least for rock/pop, it doesn't apply to classical music, where digital is plainly seen as at least the equal of vinyl.
But you've put your finger on it: radio (and iTunes listened to on headphones) is the enemy of good mastering.
EDIT crossed with Max's last post.
maxflinn
pfm Member
Joe, I obviously don't, and I don't see anything wrong in people having an emotional attachment to vinyl for whatever reasons.
It just strikes me that psychology plays a huge part in HiFi, and this is what I've attempted, rather hamfistedely (new word) to look at in this thread - the reasons other than sound quality why people may love vinyl.
maxflinn
pfm Member
I think this post from Fox is relevant.
Vinyl is more than media, some folk never seem to acknowledge this: vinyl is an artefactual entity, it is a work of art to be experienced and curated, art is fleeting, delicate and tangible, it is precious and limited and it takes looking after, something I failed to do... Vinyl is the manifest embodiment of a thought and an idea made sound made real. Art is neither subservient nor does it have to answer to reason or science or examination or even criticism or scrutiny. Art is an expression, vinyl records are an expression, media is an expression. Expression is part of living and living sometimes is intolerable without art. Sometimes the music alone is not enough for a person and it needs the physicality of the medium to manifest itself fully. Like a litho vs a high res digital screen, one is reflected light, the other is radiated light, the difference between digital and analogue can be for some that important.
Vinyl is more than media, some folk never seem to acknowledge this: vinyl is an artefactual entity, it is a work of art to be experienced and curated, art is fleeting, delicate and tangible, it is precious and limited and it takes looking after, something I failed to do... Vinyl is the manifest embodiment of a thought and an idea made sound made real. Art is neither subservient nor does it have to answer to reason or science or examination or even criticism or scrutiny. Art is an expression, vinyl records are an expression, media is an expression. Expression is part of living and living sometimes is intolerable without art. Sometimes the music alone is not enough for a person and it needs the physicality of the medium to manifest itself fully. Like a litho vs a high res digital screen, one is reflected light, the other is radiated light, the difference between digital and analogue can be for some that important.
Instead of whistling in the dark, get a ticket to Glasgow, and actually know what you are talking about.
maxflinn
pfm Member
Blzebub, thanks for the offer, I've no doubt your system sounds fantastic, whether playing vinyl or digital.
What I'm trying to tease out is discussion of other reasons, bar sound quality, why vinyl fans love it so much.
Let me put it this way, if a new format was invented tomorrow that was purported to sound better than anything currently available, would you ditch your TT and use it in preference, assuming you agreed that it sounded best?
merlin
Avatar changed - Town names deemed offensive.
I have no emotional attachment to vinyl Max.
I got rid of it years ago and only went back to it when I realised that, for me, digital simply was not living up to it's promise.
I'd get rid of it all tomorrow if I could get the same response from playing a CD.
No, I have a large vinyl collection. There is little point in conducting any sort of dialogue with you about this, as you quite clearly do not have the first idea what you are talking about. This is quite understandable if you have never heard a good turntable.
"If a new format became available that was purported to sound better than anything currently available"
I would listen to it, and decide. In the meantime, vinyl rules.
"If a new format became available that was purported to sound better than anything currently available"
I would listen to it, and decide. In the meantime, vinyl rules.
maxflinn
pfm Member
I can't argue with that Merlin.
maxflinn
pfm Member
But what if I heard a good turntable in my system and didn't hear any benefit over digital, as I did not with the needle drops, would I/do I still not have the first idea of what I am talking about?
Wouldn't such a conclusion based on nothing but sound quality not be expected, given the limitations of vinyl in comparison to digital?
Can you give me one real reason why vinyl should sound better?
What part of: "There is little point in conducting any sort of dialogue with you about this, as you quite clearly do not have the first idea what you are talking about." did you not understand? There is no point in discussing "what ifs", and your system is not a particularly good one, IMHO.
maxflinn
pfm Member
No worries, I understand completely!
Oh my, hahaha oh dear.
(Pauses for composure)
Classical recordings can be some of the most cut and pasted musics of all
I sat listening to budget Naxos CDs the very early ones and listened to the clicks and splices, takes would be bolted to each other mid take and transitions and splices were not smoothed over in those days.
Today recordings are a lot more hairshirt mainly due to costs and orchestral familiarity with the same scores repeated every decade or so, per orchestra, also the classical cd market is not derived of hifi buffs but people who go to more concerts a week than the average rock concert goer so the live experience is now what they want, but to think recording orchestral music has higher standards is a bit of puff, its nice PR though...
Traffic noise is very prevalent on recordings at say st Martin in the fields or city/church recordings.
formbypc
pfm Member
First point - are you admitting you currently don't have the first idea .....?
Why would you 'expect' a conclusion of no difference? Does this qualify as your famous 'expectation bias' that you've suggested others suffer from?
Real reasons - whilst vinyl may suffer through RIAA equalisation, non-linearity of magnetic elements in the signal path, tape hiss from analogue tapes, an all-analogue LP replay system won't have suffered from having the sound chopped up 44.1k times per second, stored, and then reconstituted on replay. You evidently don't regard that process as a form of 'distortion'.