Digital re-clockers: do they level the transport playing field?

[timpy]

But was the improvement due to the repropagation of the same USB signal or something else, like galvanic isolation, or noise?

I let the Mutec transmit over AES/EBU at the native sampling frequency to the DAC, so it isn't USB in to USB out It will upsample I believe, generate a word clock and all sorts of other functionality that comes with it (it's a pro audio device after all) that I don't need.

It is reclocking with an accurate clock, and is almost certainly a lower noise than any PC, whether it achieves that by galvanic isolation or not, I don't know. I can only report that it does work really well, would have been much cheaper if it didn't.

I did try a Trends USB to Spdif device that @GruntPuppy lent me (can't remember the model number sorry). Oddly, it was consistently worse than the raw USB from the PC. Not as much worse as the improvement made by the Mutec in the other direction, but noticeably spittier and grittier than the PC was on it's own. I only had the Topping D90 to try that with though as the 2Qute didn't stay (I didn't like it) and the DX7 Pro hadn't arrived yet.

 

[DimitryZ]

What maybe makes sense is USB to I2S. This will bypass DAC's DDC section. If latter isn't well implemented, there is at least a chance of improvement.

 

[GruntPuppy]

I let the Mutec transmit over AES/EBU at the native sampling frequency to the DAC, so it isn't USB in to USB out It will upsample I believe, generate a word clock and all sorts of other functionality that comes with it (it's a pro audio device after all) that I don't need.

It is reclocking with an accurate clock, and is almost certainly a lower noise than any PC, whether it achieves that by galvanic isolation or not, I don't know. I can only report that it does work really well, would have been much cheaper if it didn't.

I did try a Trends USB to Spdif device that @GruntPuppy lent me (can't remember the model number sorry). Oddly, it was consistently worse than the raw USB from the PC. Not as much worse as the improvement made by the Mutec in the other direction, but noticeably spittier and grittier than the PC was on it's own. I only had the Topping D90 to try that with though as the 2Qute didn't stay (I didn't like it) and the DX7 Pro hadn't arrived yet.

I forget to get the damn unit back

 

[Yank]

I was very sceptical about DDC's. Thought about it for a few months and then decided to take a punt on the Denafrips GAIA DDC. Glad I did. Based on my and our clients experience of the GAIA DDC with an Ares II DAC, Pontus II DAC, Terminator II DAC, D-02X DAC, DAVE DAC, EVO-100 DAC, K-01, Laptop, G2.1, ND5 XS2, BD-S1900 so far so good.

Current store system playing in the background is -

ND5 XS 2 > GAIA DDC > EMM Labs/Meitner Audio MA3 > Bel Canto REF500S > Monitor Audio 5G Gold 300

It's a one way street and there's no going back to a DDC less system

Does it make a similar improvement with a CD transport as source? i.e. is it worth it for someone who only uses the DAC for CD playback?

 

[sq225917]

If you have a spdif output transport and a dac that doesn't reclock then a ddc with less jitter (sic) on its output can improve things. If you dac reclocks it does nothing at all for the timing, nothing. Secondary effects could do something. If it acts as a master clock with a dac with a clock input then it might make a difference, positive or negative.

Improving the timing of the signal does nothing If that timing is discarded by the dac, ie all ess and other async dacs, not run in a specific bypass mode.

 

[Yank]

If you have a spdif output transport and a dac that doesn't reclock then a ddc with less jitter (sic) on its output can improve things. If you dac reclocks it does nothing at all for the timing, nothing. Secondary effects could do something. If it acts as a master clock with a dac with a clock input then it might make a difference, positive or negative.

Improving the timing of the signal does nothing If that timing is discarded by the dac, ie all ess and other async dacs, not run in a specific bypass mode.

Transport is Cambridge CXC, DAC is Denafrips Pontus II.

 

[DimitryZ]

Transport is Cambridge CXC, DAC is Denafrips Pontus II.

It seems like your DAC already has an excellent DDC section - with a final output feeding your DAC via internal I2S connection.

One can't really "reclock" an SPDIF signal, since the clock is from the CDT and is imbedded in the signal - and there isn't any two way communication with the CDT - SPDIF is one way protocol by definition. One can create an eleborate system that buffers the signal in memory, sinchronizes a very low jitter clock with SPDIF signal and outputs the SPDIF data with a lower jitter level. However, I think your CDT jitter is already low.

 

[tuga]

It is reclocking with an accurate clock, and is almost certainly a lower noise than any PC, whether it achieves that by galvanic isolation or not, I don't know.

I doubt that it is the reclocking, as @AndyU suggested noise-filtering is more likely.

 

[AndyU]

I doubt that it is the reclocking, as @AndyU suggested noise-filtering is more likely.

And also if the Mutec is being used as USB to AES then there’s no actual reclocking as there is no clock signal in asynchronous USB. It would just be embedding a clock signal which the DAC will then have to attempt to follow. Why the DAC would necessarily be better at that than dealing with the original USB signal and staying in control of the clock is difficult to understand. But the Mutec does have galvanic isolation, so perhaps it shields the DAC from some noise which it is susceptible to. If that’s the case, I’d probably choose optical to avoid any electrical connection whatsoever. The Mutec is indeed a prodigious device, but it does so many things like format conversion and upsampling so you are paying for quite a lot of redundant functionality. Might it not be better to put that kind of money towards a DAC which was less dependant?

 

[John Phillips]

If you have a spdif output transport and a dac that doesn't reclock then a ddc with less jitter (sic) on its output can improve things. If you dac reclocks it does nothing at all for the timing, nothing. Secondary effects could do something. If it acts as a master clock with a dac with a clock input then it might make a difference, positive or negative.

Improving the timing of the signal does nothing If that timing is discarded by the dac, ie all ess and other async dacs, not run in a specific bypass mode.

Yes - this goes to the heart of reality vs advertising. Re-clocking can help. But only if you have some problem that re-clocking addresses.

Re-clocking isn't a cure-all. If you don't have one of the problems it can address it does nothing other than deplete your bank account and enrich the industry. Unfortunately the advertising of these solutions sometimes explicitly claims they are a cure-all, or at least implies this so leaving the unwary consumer to come to the incorrect conclusion by him/herself that they will always help.

The simple answer to @JTC's rather broad original question is "no". Less simply, re-clocking can help some cases where a specific combination of transport and DAC has an audible fault. But it's no cure-all.

 

[Musicraft]

Does it make a similar improvement with a CD transport as source? i.e. is it worth it for someone who only uses the DAC for CD playback?

Yes, the GAIA DDC also offers similar levels of improvement for CD playback. As I mentioned in my previous post I use a Yamaha BD-S1900 as a CD transport and one of our clients uses an Esoteric K-01 as a CD transport.

 

[timpy]

Does it make a similar improvement with a CD transport as source? i.e. is it worth it for someone who only uses the DAC for CD playback?

When I get a bit of time I'm going to look into that with my Mutec. Unfortunately it's in my office system and I've not been there much, or at all this week since the special outing on Saturday with @GruntPuppy. The other advantage is that it allows me to use my preferred cable into the DAC over AES/EBU with every source.

Correction, somewhere I said that the Mutec MC-3+ USB could do upsampling. This is incorrect, it doesn't, it just reclocks native signals up to and including 192.
Not that I would, even if it did.

 

[timpy]

Yes - this goes to the heart of reality vs advertising. Re-clocking can help. But only if you have some problem that re-clocking addresses.

Re-clocking isn't a cure-all. If you don't have one of the problems it can address it does nothing other than deplete your bank account and enrich the industry. Unfortunately the advertising of these solutions sometimes explicitly claims they are a cure-all, or at least implies this so leaving the unwary consumer to come to the incorrect conclusion by him/herself that they will always help.

The simple answer to @JTC's rather broad original question is "no". Less simply, re-clocking can help some cases where a specific combination of transport and DAC has an audible fault. But it's no cure-all.

I was lent one. No advertising involved. No way was it going back.

 

[GruntPuppy]

I was lent one. No advertising involved. No way was it going back.

My two penn'orth - your system would work without the reclocker, but the mutec raised the standard of the playback to be basically the best I've ever heard from PC source via USB.

 

[DimitryZ]

The only input that can be "reclocked" in any standard meaning of the word is USB. This is because it's the only DAC/source interface that is bidirectional. In that case, the clock implementation in your reclocker replaces that of your DAC - and controls the source. In all other cases, the source clock is part of the digital source signal and drives all timing downstream because it's one way only.

External DDC is only needed if the USB and clock implementations in your DAC are poor. As most current audiophile DACs from $500 and up already use femtoclocks and usually have very well developed USB receivers, their DDC sections are already excellent. Most DACs you already own have non-existent jitter. This is a solved problem.

Honestly, in great majority of cases, this is just a $1-3K unnecessary drain on your budget.

 

[Musicraft]

GAIA DDC continues to impress users -

Very nice pace, drive and immediacy to the music

Finally sorted out here. Gaia DDC sounds *quite* nice in my system:

Taiko Extreme => Shunyata Omega USB => Gaia DDC => HFC Signature SPDIF => Chord Electronics Dave DAC with Sean Jacobs DC4. Shunyata pcs for Gaia DDC and DC4.

Amplification is Luxman, Bridged m900s and c900 pre, Magico A5s.

"I listed above system because customers can benefit from Gaia in systems that use other DACs and components."

Mark S (USA)

 

[adamdea]

Yes - this goes to the heart of reality vs advertising. Re-clocking can help. But only if you have some problem that re-clocking addresses.

Re-clocking isn't a cure-all. If you don't have one of the problems it can address it does nothing other than deplete your bank account and enrich the industry. Unfortunately the advertising of these solutions sometimes explicitly claims they are a cure-all, or at least implies this so leaving the unwary consumer to come to the incorrect conclusion by him/herself that they will always help.

The simple answer to @JTC's rather broad original question is "no". Less simply, re-clocking can help some cases where a specific combination of transport and DAC has an audible fault. But it's no cure-all.

I agree, but it is worth re-emphasising that
1) there is probably no problem for it to solve
2) if there is a problem it’s likely to be because one or both of the transport and dac are crap and it would probably make more sense to replace it/them
3) the main reason why someone would want to buy one of them is because they want to buy something
It’s like saying “is it worth taking some ibuprofen in case I have a head ache and feel better?”

 

[Heckyman]

In other words, would a cheap CDT plus a good DD re-clocker sound identical to a high-end CDT plus the same re-clocker.

I had the same question and with the gear I had at the time, the answer was that you can still hear the differences in quality of the source even with a good reclocker.

All that said, the differences are small and also depend on the specific DAC. So it's better to max out on the DAC, use a powerful but energy efficient computer (or good CD transport if you insist) and then see if you still need a DDC or can manage without it.

 

[runforfree69]

No, because you can't polish a turd as in the transport section, the re-clocker will even up the DACS to a certain extent. I have an Artistic Fidelity for sale at the moments and having used it with DACS from a £200 topping to a PS Audio Directstream I can say the biggest uplift is obviously with the cheaper DACS but it has made an improvement to all DACS I've played. The re-clocker is also recommended with the companies top spec' DAC2 Pro which is one of the very best available and the manufacturer clearly therefore believes re-clocking is necessary.

With regards to transports consider the casing for a Naim CDT v a £200 player. Clocking can't help here.

As an aside I had a serious uplift in sound quality using a Keces P£ to power my Mac for not much outlay. Music sounded more dynamic and therefore more energetic, involving and enthusiastic .. strange thing electricity.

 

[DimitryZ]

Today's reclocker enthusiasm is almost an exact repeat of the "de-jitter" interfaces in the 90s. You weren't a serious audiophile if you didn't invest in theses boxes that sat between your transport and your DAC.

But then digital receiver and DAC chips were engineered to reject jitter. Today, a well engineered DAC is essentially immune to it. Anti-jitter boxes became obsolete and disappeared from the market.

Remarkably, 20 years later they came back from the dead in the guise of a "reclocking DDC." Since the only digital format that can be reclocked is USB, and since it doesn't supply the clock at all in the now ubiquitous asynchronous mode, this approach effectively ignores a good chunk of the circuitry in your DAC (that you paid for) and replaces it with functionality similar circuitry in an external box. You get to buy this functionality twice!

This represents a bold and decisive success of... marketing.