Death and more death!

[Chops54]

I'm envious of anyone who has come to terms with it.

We’re all going to get a stab at it so you just have to accept it and put it to the back of your mind. When my mum was dying from cancer she told me not to get upset as she had no fear of dying. She said she wanted to be wide awake to experience the journey to the other side. Her strength has certainly helped me through the last thirty years.

 

[Enfield boy]

The best friend second in my original post was diagnosed with type two diabetes, usual symptoms excessive urination and a desperate thirst. He was one of those people who loved to be exacting in everything he done (he was a Technical Officer but also an ex mechanic who loved rebuilding cars at home . After his diagnosis he really struggled to control his blood sugars which I just couldn’t understand, he was logging his food intake and speaking with his Hospital contact regularly but he just couldn’t control it. I was looking after my fathers diabetes at that time so I couldn’t understand why he couldn’t do it. His first consultant tried him on a purely dietary solution that became common at the time (was it 700 calories a day?) which had no effect. His second consultant immediately put him on a insulin regime.
He then developed stomach pain and after an endoscopy and various test was sent home with pain killers (nothing found). He was losing weight, I was suspecting some form of stomach issues or even something cancerous but they just ran some tests every time and sent him home.
He was eventually admitted and the pain meds were increased time and time again. I remember visiting one time when his wife asked if he takes the offered medication when will he be permitted to take it again and was told (I think) four hours. She said well we know the effect only lasts two hours so what are you going to do for the remaining two? The meds were administered and sure enough he was screaming in pain (in a side ward) two hours later!
His wife asked for additional pain relief and was told “two hours”.
Surprisingly enough the docs were happy to jab him with something to calm him when he was pulling his catheter out and was being pinned to the bed by staff but not for the pain!
She walked down the corridor, found a wheel chair, lifted him into it (there was nothing left of him at this point, just bones) and wheeled him down to A&E in that very hospital. He was seen very quickly but it appeared the doctors were happy with the testing his doctors upstairs had done and sent them on their way back up to the ward.
After many days he was checked and tested (after screaming insistence from his wife) for cancer and was found to have had pancreatic cancer all that time ( no surprise his insulin injections were having little effect).
After confirmation of the disease and very limited limited life expectancy he was then prescribed Methadone to relieve the pain unfortunately there was none in the hospital!
Following day it arrived and although still conscious he was delirious but the pain appeared under control for the first time in months!

He died within the week.

Painful to watch but infinitely more painful to live!

Now I should point out that it may have been the staff were working within guidelines or from instructions from senior doctor/consultant and their hands were tied but in my eyes no one in 2022 should be screaming in pain for two hours within a UK hospital or any hospital for that matter!

I should also note that the other deaths (where applicable) I mentioned where the NHS were involved were very much in line with what a human (or animal) should expect in the UK this decade!

What a nightmarish experience for all involved. It is an outrage that this level of incompetence can occur in hospitals.
I saw it when a dear friend of mine suffered a botched hip replacement. Ex rugby player at a high level, knee replacement early 50s. Compensating for this led to the need for a new hip. MRSA introduced, replacement removed some months later and he was without a hip and part thigh bone on that side for over 3 months. 2 or 3 further replacements but in and out of hospital on an ever increasing basis over the next few years until his heart packed up. He'd gone from 15 stone to over 25 in that time with all the fluid retention. For the last couple of years of his life I was convinced the hospital saw him as an embarrassment and were encouraging him to shuffle off.

 

[Nic Robinson]

I have absolutely no fear of death. But I do fear the process and hope it's a million miles from that described by @wow&flutter

Most of my life I have been a Christian, and always expected being dead would be wonderful: joyful reunions and a CS Lewis-like "rightness" about it all. Over recent years, I took a big step and began to analyse what I believed and why. My compelling testimony and the events it contained were put under the microscope and in every single case, the honest conclusion was that there were better candidate explanations for everything. In all the conversations I have with believers (or all stripes), they generally will not confront such an analysis; a form of denial which I now understand to be the "rock" on which unshakable faith is built. Hey-ho. I now volunteer for an atheist organisation which helps people with the myriad issues they face when taking the same journey as me.

Why do I mention that in the context of this thread? The reason is that I am now (weirdly) far less bothered about my own death than when I was a believer. I didn't notice the 13 billion years before 1964 and I won't notice the eternity which follows my death. Literally nothing to see here or worry about.

If I'm wrong* and have to be judged? Well if "god" is such an asshole he will judge me eternally for using my mind, then f*ck him. Better people than me have preceded and will follow.

*Here's an excellent video by the brilliant Matt Dillahunty on why Pascal's wager is a model of absurdity.

 

[Mick P]

Either you have a faith or you do not. The main thing is to respect the other point of view.

 

[Nic Robinson]

I think the main thing is to respect the person, no matter how odd the thing they may believe.

 

[dweezil]

The best friend second in my original post was diagnosed with type two diabetes, usual symptoms excessive urination and a desperate thirst. He was one of those people who loved to be exacting in everything he done (he was a Technical Officer but also an ex mechanic who loved rebuilding cars at home . After his diagnosis he really struggled to control his blood sugars which I just couldn’t understand, he was logging his food intake and speaking with his Hospital contact regularly but he just couldn’t control it. I was looking after my fathers diabetes at that time so I couldn’t understand why he couldn’t do it. His first consultant tried him on a purely dietary solution that became common at the time (was it 700 calories a day?) which had no effect. His second consultant immediately put him on a insulin regime.
He then developed stomach pain and after an endoscopy and various test was sent home with pain killers (nothing found). He was losing weight, I was suspecting some form of stomach issues or even something cancerous but they just ran some tests every time and sent him home.
He was eventually admitted and the pain meds were increased time and time again. I remember visiting one time when his wife asked if he takes the offered medication when will he be permitted to take it again and was told (I think) four hours. She said well we know the effect only lasts two hours so what are you going to do for the remaining two? The meds were administered and sure enough he was screaming in pain (in a side ward) two hours later!
His wife asked for additional pain relief and was told “two hours”.
Surprisingly enough the docs were happy to jab him with something to calm him when he was pulling his catheter out and was being pinned to the bed by staff but not for the pain!
She walked down the corridor, found a wheel chair, lifted him into it (there was nothing left of him at this point, just bones) and wheeled him down to A&E in that very hospital. He was seen very quickly but it appeared the doctors were happy with the testing his doctors upstairs had done and sent them on their way back up to the ward.
After many days he was checked and tested (after screaming insistence from his wife) for cancer and was found to have had pancreatic cancer all that time ( no surprise his insulin injections were having little effect).
After confirmation of the disease and very limited limited life expectancy he was then prescribed Methadone to relieve the pain unfortunately there was none in the hospital!
Following day it arrived and although still conscious he was delirious but the pain appeared under control for the first time in months!

He died within the week.

Painful to watch but infinitely more painful to live!

Now I should point out that it may have been the staff were working within guidelines or from instructions from senior doctor/consultant and their hands were tied but in my eyes no one in 2022 should be screaming in pain for two hours within a UK hospital or any hospital for that matter!

I should also note that the other deaths (where applicable) I mentioned where the NHS were involved were very much in line with what a human (or animal) should expect in the UK this decade!

Sounds a familiar story, hospitals seem desperately frightened by effective pain control. I had a friend who went through the same on her death bad.
On a much lower level all my prescribed pain control was taken away when i went in for multiple pelvic fractures and i was offered oral morphine which didn't seem to have any effect. Luckily was well enough to organise an escape committee, my partner and daughter, to get out after 60 hours. Narrowly escaped a drive to London and operation.

I hate the prospect of death, we both don't want to be left alone. Work is becoming less of a priority and we need to enjoy the next 15 years if capable.

 

[allthingsanalog]

Between January 2020 and January 2023, in my memory’s order, I lost:

Our cat
My brother
My mum
My dad
My best mate from the RAF
Two cousins
Two uncles
An aunt

It was brutal, and I’ve no idea how I made it through. My parents lived 130 miles away, and Covid severely restricted what I could do to help them. Thankfully the guys where I work were extremely understanding.

That’s really rough. My condolences.

 

[Seeker_UK]

We’re all going to get a stab at it so you just have to accept it and put it to the back of your mind.

I'm struggling with that whole come to terms with it thing. My dad was certainly not comfortable with it before he passed away and mum is the same.

 

[martin clark]

I didn't notice the 13 billion years before 1964 and I won't notice the eternity which follows my death. Literally nothing to see here or worry about.

Nabokov described just exactly this, such as '.. just one small piece of light between two eternal darknesses'.
- I am very content, with just that.

And for those who believe otherwise - John Donne set the case, beautifully:

Holy Sonnets: Death, be not proud by John Donne | Poetry Foundation

Death, be not proud, though some have called thee

www.poetryfoundation.org

 

[Bob McC]

Being dead doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
its just the oblivion so well described by Nic.

The dying process terrifies me.

 

[suzywong]

We had an anus horribilis about twenty years ago, when my wife lost half a dozen relatives in the space of six months, including one infamous bank holiday when she went to the funerals of her grandmother on Friday and her aunt on the following Monday.

 

[darrenyeats]

I'm struggling with that whole come to terms with it thing. My dad was certainly not comfortable with it before he passed away and mum is the same.

Seeker, I agree "accept" is too strong. I don't accept things just because they're facts. It's like asking me to accept child abuse, because of the fact it's happening. I acknowledge ageing and death.

They say if you worry, you suffer twice, and for this reason I try not to dwell on negative facts. Suffering once is already too much thanks.

The greatest paradox for me, is that a positive attitude is completely unjustified given the facts, and yet it's the absolute key to making the best of things, spotting and realising opportunities, and being happy within whatever time we have. I say again, greatest paradox.

My condolences to you, and to the other posters.

 

[herb]

I have absolutely no fear of death. But I do fear the process and hope it's a million miles from that described by @wow&flutter

Most of my life I have been a Christian, and always expected being dead would be wonderful: joyful reunions and a CS Lewis-like "rightness" about it all. Over recent years, I took a big step and began to analyse what I believed and why. My compelling testimony and the events it contained were put under the microscope and in every single case, the honest conclusion was that there were better candidate explanations for everything. In all the conversations I have with believers (or all stripes), they generally will not confront such an analysis; a form of denial which I now understand to be the "rock" on which unshakable faith is built. Hey-ho. I now volunteer for an atheist organisation which helps people with the myriad issues they face when taking the same journey as me.

Why do I mention that in the context of this thread? The reason is that I am now (weirdly) far less bothered about my own death than when I was a believer. I didn't notice the 13 billion years before 1964 and I won't notice the eternity which follows my death. Literally nothing to see here or worry about.

If I'm wrong* and have to be judged? Well if "god" is such an asshole he will judge me eternally for using my mind, then f*ck him. Better people than me have preceded and will follow.

*Here's an excellent video by the brilliant Matt Dillahunty on why Pascal's wager is a model of absurdity.

A good example of left brain process explanation. Very consistent , I looked up Matt Dillahunty in Wiki and Youtube and he is making a good living expressing these anti Christian views . He has videos on most of the religions but as far as I can tell he has not tackled the obvious atheist 'religion' Buddhism. Of course he could attack reincarnation but many Buddhist practices do not depend oh it. It is an interesting and complex philosophy and there is no god involved. Have I missed a discussion?

 

[paulfromcamden]

I'm afraid when it comes to a big guy in the sky I'm with David Attenborough.

I think of a little child in East Africa with a worm burrowing through his eyeball.
The worm cannot live in any other way, except by burrowing through eyeballs.
I find that hard to reconcile with the notion of a divine and benevolent creator.

I found myself thinking something similar watching motor neurone disease slowly paralyse and kill my Mum.

 

[raysablade]

I have absolutely no fear of death. But I do fear the process and hope it's a million miles from that described by @wow&flutter

Most of my life I have been a Christian, and always expected being dead would be wonderful: joyful reunions and a CS Lewis-like "rightness" about it all. Over recent years, I took a big step and began to analyse what I believed and why. My compelling testimony and the events it contained were put under the microscope and in every single case, the honest conclusion was that there were better candidate explanations for everything. In all the conversations I have with believers (or all stripes), they generally will not confront such an analysis; a form of denial which I now understand to be the "rock" on which unshakable faith is built. Hey-ho. I now volunteer for an atheist organisation which helps people with the myriad issues they face when taking the same journey as me.

Why do I mention that in the context of this thread? The reason is that I am now (weirdly) far less bothered about my own death than when I was a believer. I didn't notice the 13 billion years before 1964 and I won't notice the eternity which follows my death. Literally nothing to see here or worry about.

If I'm wrong* and have to be judged? Well if "god" is such an asshole he will judge me eternally for using my mind, then f*ck him. Better people than me have preceded and will follow.

*Here's an excellent video by the brilliant Matt Dillahunty on why Pascal's wager is a model of absurdity.

I'm a Unitarian and, whilst never seeking to proselytise, I'm thankfully not burdened by images of an afterlife or judgement.

 

[hifinutt]

It shouldn't scare you. I firmly believe that when we die we go to a better place and that takes the fear away.

The 2 most wonderful people i was with at death recently .one had amazing faith an God and such peace and hope for eternal life

The other had no hope at all and made it even more painful

My mum had incredible faith in God and when she was dying and spending umpteen hours in hospital told everyone not to worry as she knew where she was going .she was just incredible

 

[hifinutt]

My sympathies and best wishes to all suffering losses at the moment. My father is in a home in the final stages of prostate (now bone) cancer. Seeing a tall confident intelligent man who helped everyone and was that person you went to with any problem to get a fix, now bed ridden skin and bone and struggling to remember what he did yesterday is incredibly tough. He is 92 and had a wonderful life and 32 years of retirement. My life is currently trying to spend as much time with him as possible.

Horrible ...do hope they can keep him comfortable and free from pressure sores .the latter can be more painful than the cancer and not easy to stop .hope he gets good pain relief

 

[hifinutt]

A few years ago, a friend's mother went to hospital with a terminal diagnosis. The doctor stipulated nil by mouth and for nearly a week my friend and his Dad had to sit by her bedside unable to comply with requests for food or drink, just watching her die. I am still incandescent with anger at the callousness. In A&E I was once given morphine I neither wanted, needed or had asked for, it would have been so easy to ease her suffering.

I fear a bad death more than I fear death.

Utterly tragic .so sorry to hear .seen this a few times .hospices or palliative care at home is not always possible and hospitals can be very bad at it .recently i was at one of the biggest hospitals in europe and i think they barely had one person on call for palliative care .

 

[Nic Robinson]

The 2 most wonderful people i was with at death recently .one had amazing faith an God and such peace and hope for eternal life

The other had no hope at all and made it even more painful

My mum had incredible faith in God and when she was dying and spending umpteen hours in hospital told everyone not to worry as she knew where she was going .she was just incredible

I hope you're not implying that people who approach death without religious faith will automatically die without hope.

 

[Nic Robinson]

A good example of left brain process explanation. Very consistent

I've never thought of myself nor been described as left-brained. Quite the reverse. I'll take that as a compliment!

...he is making a good living expressing these anti Christian views . He has videos on most of the religions but as far as I can tell he has not tackled the obvious atheist 'religion' Buddhism.

As I understand it he never made a cent with the ACA - entirely voluntary. I think he makes money from videos and The Line and debate fees but not too much, I think. It's not so much he is expressing anti-Christian views, but more engaging with theists and exploring what they believe and why. He's certainly very good at analysing these things. Anyone who wishes to make money cynically needs to pretend to believe and become a pastor of a big charismatic church. Ker-ching!